are black and white photographers vain, all this talk about archival image making

[miha]

Hi John, You were too fast quoting me I have corrected my OP as all my Ilford RC prints are still OK, at least they were a year ago when I went trough most of my prints.

 

[Lee Rust]

The long term readability of encoded data or image files is uncertain. Photographic negatives are inscrutable to the average observer. Print them out and they take on a life of their own, whether rendered in pigment, dye or silver. Any physical image is by definition 'analog' and will likely survive for many generations.

As Summicron put it so well, carefully printed photographs become our hopeful gift to the future. All the better if we follow Bill's advice to write something on the back or along the edge that tells a little bit of the story. The unknown inhabitants of an uncertain sometime will be grateful, even if they don't remember our names.

 

[georg16nik]

And how many people use any of these in the real world and which one tells us what the minumum realistic life of a B&W print should be.

The really great thing about standards is there are so many different ones to choose from.

First you said there are no such standards, now you suggest nobody uses them, yet, you wanna know what's in the standards...?
Prove that you really wanna know what's in these standards and the ones referenced within and just buy them - http://www.iso.org/
They are valuable asset if you take film photography seriously.

 

[Sirius Glass]

Now, where snobbery and BW come together is when they ruin a photo that should be in color and force it in BW due to a bloated ego.

nsfw

https://danielteolijr.wordpress.com...lack-and-white-snobs-as-well-as-colour-snobs/

What a bunch of bull crap! I usually do not have to get hip boots do wade though such sewage when I read posts on APUG.

 

[blansky]

again ... whatever
this has nothing to do with me or control, but your non-stop anti digtal diatribes.
i completely agree with summicron1, i do work for government archives and understand "material culture"
your venting, and typical anti digtal angst was not the point of my original post.
so, please keep your anti digital sheepshank to a minimum in this thread

( summicron1 - this has NOTHING to do with you or your post )

Groundhog day. And out they come....

 

[blansky]

What a bunch of bull crap! I usually do not have to get hip boots do wade though such sewage when I read posts on APUG.

Perhaps he was responding to my assertion that B&W "usually" has more gravitas, and more interest partly due to the surreal nature of it.

 

[Old-N-Feeble]

...all this talk about archival image making

Because it's the best way to do it... and why not? Savvy buyers will care about such things because they should. Collectors want and expect longevity... just as they should... to preserve their investments.

 

[Ken Nadvornick]

Groundhog day. And out they come....

Except that my compliment to Charles had nothing whatsoever to do with any digital versus film diatribe. That never even crossed my mind. It was just a very well-turned phrase that summed the situation crisply and cleanly. Something I appreciated on its own merit. Others after me remarked positively on the phrase as well.

You should understand perhaps more than most, as I've certainly complimented your writing (and thinking) enough times in the past. Even in those cases where I may disagree with your assertions, they are nevertheless well-written and well-presented, and often quite entertaining as well. They are good reads.

Intellectual compartmentalization is the key. One can compliment the presentation while still disagreeing with the content. In the case of the phrase in question, I agreed with both, and felt moved to say so.

Ken

 

[removed account4]

Groundhog day. And out they come....

oh well, what can you do ...

 

[Sirius Glass]

Originally Posted by Iluvmycam
Now, where snobbery and BW come together is when they ruin a photo that should be in color and force it in BW due to a bloated ego.

nsfw

https://danielteolijr.wordpress.com/...-colour-snobs/

What a bunch of bull crap! I usually do not have to get hip boots do wade though such sewage when I read posts on APUG.

Perhaps he was responding to my assertion that B&W "usually" has more gravitas, and more interest partly due to the surreal nature of it.

No, it was not a response to you, blansky; it was to Ilovmycam.

 

[Old-N-Feeble]

Why evvy-buddy so pissed off? Where da' luv, ya'll??

 

[Sirius Glass]

Why evvy-buddy so pissed off? Where da' luv, ya'll??

Clint Eastwood shot it dead.

 

[MattKing]

On the subject of archival processing of test strips and work prints ...

I do keep some of my test strips and work prints for purposes like recording print manipulation decisions and testing for print toning. It is generally just easier to process them along side and the same way as the final prints.

In addition, if they are going to be stored with the final prints, I want them to be well behaved .

 

[removed account4]

thanks matt i can see that,
they are like a road map to the final destination.

i found 100+500 sheet boxes full of stuff i almost got rid of the other night
test prints, rc test strips all sorts of things i insisted on saving for no reason other than
i didn't throw any of it out .. i can't say any of it served any purpose other than i was saving trash for someone else to throw out
at a different time.

 

[cliveh]

Why should any medium for art need to be permanent? In the history of the earth none is. Copies of copies may go on ad infinitum, but the most archival print will eventually turn to dust. Second law of thermodynamics.

 

[Sirius Glass]

Why should any medium for art need to be permanent? In the history of the earth none is. Copies of copies may go on ad infinitum, but the most archival print will eventually turn to dust. Second law of thermodynamics.

Has the second law of thermodynamics been revised recently?

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/thermo/seclaw.html
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/thermo/seclaw.html
http://www.livescience.com/50941-second-law-thermodynamics.html
https://www.grc.nasa.gov/www/k-12/airplane/thermo2.html
http://www.panspermia.org/seconlaw.htm
http://www.allaboutscience.org/second-law-of-thermodynamics.htm​

Where did you get your degree in thermodynamics? A Blue Light Special at Wal-Mart, not quite as good but a whole lot cheaper?

:munch::munch::munch::munch::munch:​

 

[Theo Sulphate]

Why should any medium for art need to be permanent? In the history of the earth none is. Copies of copies may go on ad infinitum, but the most archival print will eventually turn to dust. Second law of thermodynamics.

The best photos will be placed into a capsule and launched into interstellar space, to be viewed eons later by other beings.

 

[cliveh]

Has the second law of thermodynamics been revised recently?

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/thermo/seclaw.html
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/thermo/seclaw.html
http://www.livescience.com/50941-second-law-thermodynamics.html
https://www.grc.nasa.gov/www/k-12/airplane/thermo2.html
http://www.panspermia.org/seconlaw.htm
http://www.allaboutscience.org/second-law-of-thermodynamics.htm​

Where did you get your degree in thermodynamics? A Blue Light Special at Wal-Mart, not quite as good but a whole lot cheaper?

:munch::munch::munch::munch::munch:​

Since entropy gives information about the evolution of an isolated system with time, it is said to give us the direction of "time's arrow" . If snapshots of a system at two different times shows one state which is more disordered, then it could be implied that this state came later in time. For an isolated system, the natural course of events takes the system to a more disordered (higher entropy) state.

 

[Sirius Glass]

Where are my hip boots when I need to really get away from the muck? WABOBS!!

 

[blansky]

Why should any medium for art need to be permanent? In the history of the earth none is. Copies of copies may go on ad infinitum, but the most archival print will eventually turn to dust. Second law of thermodynamics.

There is something to be said for the beauty and majesty of sand paintings.

 

[cliveh]

There is something to be said for the beauty and majesty of sand paintings.

How true.

 

[RobC]

First you said there are no such standards, now you suggest nobody uses them, yet, you wanna know what's in the standards...?
Prove that you really wanna know what's in these standards and the ones referenced within and just buy them - http://www.iso.org/
They are valuable asset if you take film photography seriously.

All you've done is list some titles. You haven't answered my question which is what is the number of years a B&W print must last before its considered archival?

I know you won't be able to answer it because it isn't written into any standard. All you get is a lot residual chemical tests recommending a processing regime but evading the actual critical issue of how long a print will last. i.e. There is no standard which says a print must last x amount of years to be considered archival. Saying its been archivally processed doesn't tell a buyer how long they can expect it to last does it and you don't know. Nobody knows for sure.

Of course if you've bought all of those standards then you'll have all the answers won't you. On the other hand if you haven't bought them then you have no idea what they say but you're claiming there is a standard as though you know what's in them.

 

[Sirius Glass]

First you said there are no such standards, now you suggest nobody uses them, yet, you wanna know what's in the standards...?
Prove that you really wanna know what's in these standards and the ones referenced within and just buy them - http://www.iso.org/
They are valuable asset if you take film photography seriously.

There are no standards. Part of the reason there are no standards is there is not a standard print display environment.

What there is is best practices based on research, as opposed to some political faith-based ideologies.

 

[HiHoSilver]

On the orig. question - are we vain?
Does Raggedy Anne have cotton parts?
Art is vain. People (all) are vain.
Question is if our vanity produces anything other vain people like. Hopefully alot.

 

[removed account4]

Where did you get your degree in thermodynamics? A Blue Light Special at Wal-Mart, not quite as good but a whole lot cheaper?

only 625 more posts to go and you willbe at 20K !
but you still won't break the yearly record which was 10K in a year
you are sometimes at 100 posts a day so you will be at 20K very soon !

where's laz !?