APUG book of photos

[Joe O'Brien]

Count me in for a book! Also, if submissions are still being accepted please let me know!

 

[munz6869]

Michael's quote sounds good to me also, and at that price, why wouldn't I take part or even just buy one?

Marc!

 

[Ian Grant]

Thanks for the quotes Michael. At those prices I would be willing to buy one.

We now have something to build on. Those objecting to Lodima being the publisher have the option of presenting quotes of their own.

I would suggest that the committee and/or behind the scenes people consider starting a blog or something in order to communicate the possibilities that are being discussed. I don't think a project like this will get off the ground if everybody is involved, but I do think everybody should be informed.

Raul

Raul there will be announcements made soon, there's still a few things need finishing off.

The book will be inclusive, images for inclusion will not be selected by any one person, regardless of who they are. The Survey Rachelle ran showed there was a majority of opinions against this.

The proposal is based on the premise that the book will need to be POD, however it does not rule out having the book printed by MAS or any other company if there's sufficient demand.

In light of this very late quote from MAS which we asked for quite a time ago the volumes and costs may well mean we can have the book litho printed but it will depend on numbers and demand. The quote will be looked at seriously and the logistics and practicalities gone into.

Ian

 

[removed account4]

thanks for the quote michael ... !

 

[Stephen Frizza]

I would love to be involved with this project!!! count me in if you require submissions. also are you familiar with a similar thing thats been launched in australia this year called the Photographic Compendium 2011? if now check this link out for some more info. mary Meyer is the brain child of this book and the quality is FANTASTIC!!! Dead Link Removed

 

[Michael A. Smith]

Mary Meyer is a good friend of ours. I will check out the link. Many thanks.

I was unaware that people were PMing. I was not included in any way. Therefore, I will not work with anyone who was working behind my back without including me, especially since I was the first, and to date, the only one who put forward a specific proposal. I don't get it. Maybe they feel threatened by me. Whatever the reason, their behavior is unacceptable.

My quote was called a "very late quote." It is not a very late quote at all. Anyone who has experience publishing photography books knows that requests for quotes are not turned around instantly. They can take many weeks, and sometimes even months.

For anyone who wants to participate, here is what to do:

Send up to five low-res jpgs to Joel, whose had the original idea for this book. Joel will remove all names and assign numbers to each submission: 1A, 1B, 1C, 1D, 1E, from the first person; 2A, 2B, 2C, 2D, 2E from the second person, and so on. In that way there will be no personalities involved. And since I have never visited any APUG gallery, I have no familiarity with any of the photographs that will be submitted, so all submissions will truly be anonymous in every way. Even those who object to the way I will do this, or who do not like me for whatever reason, can also submit work, as I will not know who they are. In this way there can be no favoritism of any sort whatsoever. I will never know the names of those who submitted work unless they are selected.

My criteria for inclusion is first that the photographs are well seen. As I wrote previously, I do not care if a photographs is made with a Holga or is an 8x10-inch contact print, or whether it is in black and white or in color, or in some alternative process, or if the subject matter is street photography, portraits, urban or natural landscapes, still-life, abstractions, photograms, tableaus, or anything else someone comes up with. It just needs to be well done. And if I have any hesitations, Paula will also have eyes on the submissions. Sometimes her take on photographs is different from mine.

Now as I write this, I realize I am more than well aware that the book needs to have variety. So I would hope there will be submissions in all genres and with all processes. Even if I thought that the 100 best submissions were from 8x10-inch contact prints, I would not do a book like that. The book, as I see it, will represent a cross-section of APUGers' visual concerns and interests. That being said, do hold off on the calendar art. It is not likely to be included, unless it is great calendar art.

The more submissions the better. The quotes I received were based on 100 reproductions. The book could easily have more pages. The larger the book and the more books that are printed, the less the cost per page and the less the book will cost everyone. I would think that $20 price per book will be the highest price. With sufficient submissions the cost will be lower.

I will select one photograph from each submission. For those not selected, or for those who wonder why I selected which one I picked, I will offer to give a critique by phone. Back in 1969, a few years after I began teaching photography, I was charging $50 to do that. Rates have gone up considerably since then. Now I will charge $50 for 15 minutes. Since I am only looking at five photographs, if it takes less than 15 minutes, I will pro-rate the cost. And if someone wants a wishes to send more jpgs for their critique, the $50 rate for each 15-minute segment will apply. For those wondering if my critiques would be useful, I refer you to our web site: www.michaelandpaula.com. Look under "Calendars and Workshops" and then read the unsolicited comments we have received. Among them are comments like these:

"I have been a commercial photographer since I was 17, I went to collage, assisted the top photographers in London, worked on global international advertising accounts for the last twenty five years, and last year I went back to collage to do my Masters, not once in all that time have I ever had such an interesting and informative photographic experience."

"You guys changed me, my photography and how I view what I do more than any other single event in my lifetime!"

"Just a note of thanks to you both for having me at your wonderful workshop. There are events that occur in one's life that you consider a milestone for growth for who you are or become. I can honestly say that your workshop is one of my milestone events."

"Just a quick note to thank the two of you for a wonderful workshop this weekend. I cannot begin to express what an eye-opening experience it was working with you, both in the field and in the darkroom. I have been photographing a long time and I have never come across anyone who uses the camera the way you do to truly explore the world as a visual experience and turn that experience into a print that becomes something more than what was seen. This was truly revolutionary for me."

And there are many others.

Purchasing books. The book cannot be printed until all of the money to pay for it is in hand. No money needs to be sent at this time, but we do need to know how many books will be ordered. So, in a separate email or PM to Joel, please indicate how many books you will be likely to purchase. Include the address you would like your books shipped to, a phone number, and your email address. Joel will keep a data base of this information. When it is time, credit/debit cards will be accepted as will checks. International shipping is fine. For those in Australia or New Zealand, perhaps books can be shipped directly there, if someone there can take responsibility for forwarding the books to those who purchased them. And the same for Europe.

One last thing: Although I have a very clear idea of what this book will look like, I am always open to suggestions. If you read this post carefully, and then refer to my previous posts in this thread you will see that I have already incorporated some of the suggestions that were put forward.

Michael A. Smith

 

[Ian Grant]

Michael as far as we are concerned Sean who runs APUG ruled you out a few weeks ago back in past (there was a url link here which no longer exists), there was a majority in the poll against you/an individual being the selector.

What's your problem with that ?

You don't need to sell yourself, we can make our own judgements.

If you read this post carefully, and then refer to my previous posts in this thread you will see that I have already incorporated some of the suggestions that were put forward.
Michael A. Smith

The major suggestion has been that you have nothing what so ever to do with the selection, and that hasn't changed.

Ian

 

[Michael A. Smith]

I have had a number of requests asking who is "Joel," who had the original idea for a book. His "handle" or whatever you call it here at APUG is guitstik.

If enough people respond there will be a fine book. If an insufficient number of people respond, I will just let it drop.

Michael A. Smith

 

[Ian David]

What a remarkable thread. Speaking of Joel/guitstik, is he still actively involved in this idea? Just curious... I have lost track of who is playing for which team.

Ian

 

[keithwms]

Michael as far as we are concerned Sean who runs APUG ruled you out a few weeks ago back in past (there was a url link here which no longer exists), there was a majority in the poll against you/an individual being the selector.

What's your problem with that ?

You don't need to sell yourself, we can make our own judgements.



The major suggestion has been that you have nothing what so ever to do with the selection, and that hasn't changed.

Ian

I agree. And I have the feeling that some think this project is more about them than APUG. Begone to cultivate your own sparkling legacy then. Charge to judge my photographs? LOL Get a clue. Democracy might be a useful concept to apply.

Who ever runs this project should be truly humbled by the opportunity to work to serve the people who contribute their amazing work that appears on APUG. Work which is not always mere homage to Adams.

I do hope that Sean will not reward any self-serving propositions with the APUG logo.

 

[mooseontheloose]

Just for a little perspective...

I've gone through all 28 pages of this thread and here are some stats:

9165 views

272 posts

58 contributors:

-Of the 58 contributors, the most prolific (that's 8 of us (13.7%), including me) which I count at 10 or more posts each, have made 147 posts, or 54% of all postings to this thread.

-25 contributors (43%) have only made one post.

-I realize that not everyone who is interested in the book has contributed to this thread (or to the survey, which had 106 completed responses), but the numbers are still very low. Are 500-1000 people really going to commit to buy the book?

Other thoughts based on the forum thread and the survey results:

-A few people have indicated that they want someone outside of APUG to take over this project.
-A few other people have indicated that they prefer that this be handled by a group of people, either within or without APUG
-Many people have objected to one person taking over this project.
-Some people are assuming the worst of everyone, and of this project, and I really don't know why.

-Some people have taken offense at a small group of people (and yes, I am one of them) trying to sift through all of the requests to make something that is APUG-oriented and acceptable to most of the membership. To be clear, not one of us has gone behind anyone's back. I think we were just people who somehow got accidentally caught up with wanting to help create a successful APUG project and went forward with it. I do apologize for any offence this has caused, especially if my contributing to it makes people uncomfortable.

We are doing are best to finalize what we think would be acceptable selection criteria, publisher, selection committee (for the images), timelines, etc. We have been working on this for the past two weeks and are nearly there.

 

[hoffy]

I'm looking forward to what you guys have worked out Rachelle.

 

[Michael A. Smith]

To keithwms: Please read more carefully. There is no charge to look at your photographs. None whatsoever. I cannot imagine how you read that into what I wrote. To look at and select photographs is purely my donated time.

Michael A. Smith

 

[keithwms]

To keithwms: Please read more carefully. There is no charge to look at your photographs. None whatsoever. I cannot imagine how you read that into what I wrote. To look at and select photographs is purely my donated time.

Michael A. Smith

Not to derail this thread, but... you went to some length to explain what you would charge to furnish critique. Okay, so let's suppose that you won't charge to critique contributions to this book. Then why did you add all that about charging (a lot) to critique photographs for a few minutes? Sounds an awful lot like an advertisement to me. That is what probably rubs people (like me) the wrong way.

 

[Ian David]

Some people have taken offense at a small group of people (and yes, I am one of them) trying to sift through all of the requests to make something that is APUG-oriented and acceptable to most of the membership. To be clear, not one of us has gone behind anyone's back. I think we were just people who somehow got accidentally caught up with wanting to help create a successful APUG project and went forward with it. I do apologize for any offence this has caused, especially if my contributing to it makes people uncomfortable.

We are doing are best to finalize what we think would be acceptable selection criteria, publisher, selection committee (for the images), timelines, etc. We have been working on this for the past two weeks and are nearly there.

Thanks for the info Rachelle.

Are you able please to let the wider APUG membership know who is on your steering committee?

Ian

 

[bill spears]

Rachelle makes a very valid point in her last post (#278)

$20,000 top estimate from Lodima for 1000 books sounds like a no brainer. I'd guess 2000 books could be printed for only a few dollars more.... making the unit cost even lower. Have you read the survey results though Michael....... there are only just over 100 replies ?

Where IS Guitstik ?

 

[Michael A. Smith]

To keithwms re: charge for critique: As I wrote, this would be something optional after the photographs for the book was selected and put together.

Why I put it in there is that it occurred to me that some people might want some serious feedback. Giving a serious critique is no small thing. It requires a lot of effort. Paula and I teach occasional weekend Vision and Technique Workshops and giving a deep and serious helpful critique is a large part of it. We have been told repeatedly that in all of the other workshops that people had taken that they had never had anyone give them such a useful critique. So I thought that it would be a nice thing to offer if someone were interested--to offer it as a service--for less than 1/10 of our workshop fees. Of course, it is not a full workshop, but I know it would be valuable to anyone who was interested. If no one were interested, that would be fine, as I have too much to do as it is. Unfortunately, because of my limited time and the effort required, I cannot offer to give a serious critique for nothing.

We have found, in our workshops, that if people put up 10 or 20 or 30 or 40 photographs for us to critique and we ask them to tell us which they think are the best, and why, it is extremely rare that anyone picks the right ones. And their reasons for their selections usually have nothing to do with the photograph, but with some combination of their experience of making the photograph and what it means to them. In other words, they are not looking at their photographs the way a curator would look at them--look at them objectively without knowing (or caring), how or why they were made (although the "why" is usually evident from the photograph itself).

Thanks for explaining more precisely what you were objecting to and for giving me the opportunity to make clear what I was offering. Your first response to my long posting implied that I was charging for my time to select the photographs for the book, which I most definitely am not doing.

Michael A. Smith

 

[removed account4]

thanks rachelle !

i am also looking forward to what you all come up with ..


- john

 

[Ian Grant]

For what it is worth, I'd still feel much more comfortable submitting work to M. A. Smith than the APUG inner circle. And I still don't understand the over-the-top objections Ian Grant and others have to that idea. They must be truly afraid of, or insulted by the prospect of their respective submissions being anonymously subject to review along side "amateur" work. If all the submissions are from APUG, how is it any less an APUG book if Michael Smith makes the selections versus some APUG panel of "prolific posters"?

Michael the majority don't want MAS to select work, so I'm just one of that MAJORITY so please don't get personal. My reasons for objecting to MAS being the selector are my own business and based on my own opinions, which ironically I have alluded to in the past in other threads.

It's time you made some positive suggestions, instead of snide comments, no-one has suggested that "some APUG panel of "prolific posters" is going to do the selection except you more than once.

You were asked if you'd help towards this project, because it's based on a broad consensus and also takes into account the Poll that was conducted, and you said no, so please don't go making false statements about this project or peoples motives.

It's about a book that represents APUG in the best possible way, that's inclusive, gives every one a chance of having an image selected while being a true representation of the 10 years of APUG.

Finally Michael don't assume that what I might have suggested in the early parts of these threads is what will happen, there's been a lot of thought and discussion to ensure that all interests are catered for. All any of us want is a book that's for all of us not an exclusive publication of a few prolific posters, that would actually be a very much easier project

Ian

 

[coigach]

Have been on holiday for a week without internet access (imagine!) and have just been catching up on new posts.

Thanks Michael for your quote, look forward to reading about the alternative option too.

 

[Michael A. Smith]

I really don't get it. In my first long posting on this thread I predicated that some would take offense at my suggestions and indeed they have.

Anyone who has read my postings to this thread can clearly see that they are thoughtful.

I have made many positive suggestions and specific proposals. How Mr. Grant can say that I have not is a mystery to me.

Grant: "It's about a book that represents APUG in the best possible way, that's inclusive, gives every one a chance of having an image selected while being a true representation of the 10 years of APUG."

Well, duh. Of course it is. Nothing I have ever written would imply anything different.

Grant: "All any of us want is a book that's for all of us not an exclusive publication of a few prolific posters."

Well, duh again. All my suggestions and efforts have gone exactly to that end.

Since I have clearly explained that I am open to all types of photography (see previous posts for details), perhaps Mr. Grant or some of the others can tell me why they object to my making the selections--anonymously. Is it that they are prolific posters and are afraid their work would not be included? Or is it something else? And if something else, what?

I would think that if a group of "prolific posters" got together and made the selection not anonymously that favoritism would come into play. And even if the selections were ostensibly anonymous there would still be favoritism as these folks have looked at the APUG galleries and already know some of the work. Seems profoundly undemocratic to me, despite seeming more democratic than having one person make the selection who is previously unfamiliar with all of the work that would be submitted.

Michael A. Smith

 

[Ian Grant]

Smith, it's so simple the MAJORITY don't want you involved in any editing. If you really want to know why then you need to ask people individually and that will take you quite a time.

Aside from that there's NO disagreement between us on a board or personal level. I'm not the majority I just happen to agree with them and perhaps you should consider the majority's views.

Please don't get personal in your attacks. And what on earth are you on about in that last paragraph only you and MichaelR1974 have suggested such a stupid way of selecting images

Ian

 

[Sean]

The project is likely a bit ahead of itself in that numbers are the key aspect before getting too involved. Not to be negative, but 500-1000 books seems highly unlikely to me. Based on the activity I have seen in this thread and survey I would realistically put the purchase range of an APUG book to 50-150 books max. That would leave a huge burden on those involved and those who have submitted work to offset the cost. That in itself would drive costs further up reducing submissions, purchases. Having people responsible for their own scans could be very risky and costly to them further reducing submissions and be a logistical nightmare of sorts. I would say get a solid 500 willing to buy a book, then work out the logistics of how to proceed from there. I don't think it will be anywhere near 500 (especially in this economy), but would love to be proven wrong. I am happy to run a "Would you pre-purchase an APUG Book?" type of notice in all forum headers for a week or so to finally get some figures if you want..

 

[2F/2F]

Get Freestyle involved. Have them sponsor, carry, and push the book. And have their board of photographic professionals jury the show (anonymously). Accompany the book release with a gallery show at Freestyle. That keeps APUG folks out of the selection process, but ensures that it is in the hands of dedicated analog photo folk. And it helps out financially, and opens up the product to a much wider group of potential purchasers. If prolific posters are not included, that's just how the cookie crumbles. You take that risk when submitting work to a selection board. This is not about WHO gets in; it's about WHAT gets in. It is about putting together a bunch of fine work that will promote analog photography and APUG, not about inflating egos or granting rewards for contribution.

Is it that they are prolific posters and are afraid their work would not be included?

That is exactly it, Mr. Smith. It is fear of a bruised ego. Balls to that. If you ain't gettin' yer ego bruised on a daily basis, you ain't livin'!

 

[Michael A. Smith]

I think it is very revealing the Mr. Grant, who is foremost among those objecting to my making the selections refuses to answer the question of why he so objects.

Michael A. Smith