Apparent Confusion about Artistic Expression

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donald --

i never really think about why am photographing and making photographic images. for me i think it is about telling some sort of story. i don't mind failing, and know that failure only leads to something better down the road.

i haven't really answered your questions very well ...
 

Andy K

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billschwab said:
Uuuuhhhh.... Pete Seeger only covered it as well. Go back... wayyyy back.

Bill

Ok, if we're going to split hairs, the song was written by Pete Seeger. The original 'verse' was taken from some old book or other written in antiquity. :wink:
 

jd callow

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gr82bart said:
What she said. I like what I like. End of my philosophy.

Art.

I have met phenomenal artists who probably couldn't say that much about what they produce. It is OK to operate on autopilot and just as legitimate to try and get a grip on what you do and why.

I would guess that as much analysis is done in retrospect as is done prior. One will still take their perspective with them when they shoot and I would argue that it is better to pursue improvement and definition than it is to wait to get caught by it.
 

Tom Reardon

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BWGirl said:
so, sorry, I am just a person who loves photography, shoots what she likes, and hopes that she will have a nice photo or two after the first 10,000. :D

Ditto - I photograph because I can't not do it, and hope some others enjoy the result
 

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BWGirl said:
I have this really strong aversion to endless 'navel-gazing'. :wink: ....I am just a person who loves photography, shoots what she likes, and hopes that she will have a nice photo or two after the first 10,000. :D

Thanks, Jeannette, you said it for me and I think many others. I am not a fan of art school motivation platitudes or of psycho-babble. Me, I'm just an old psycho-ceramic. (cracked-pot :D )

I love the tactile sensations of the whole process....swatting mosquitos in the woods.... getting bruises from the rocks in river gorges.... spilling chemistry... burning myself on the dry mount press... it's FUN! :D

Bob
 
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Donald Miller

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Thank you, each and every one of you, for your responses. I have not taken the time to read them all because the tone that I have observed by those I have read is really not constructive to maintaining any type of future relationship.

I think that I have the picture and believe me, I have no problem with my self expression. I haven't had for a pretty long time.

I will leave it that this is a subject that is best not discussed here. I will find those who have enough self awareness and who think about these things. There are those who do. I have found them before. Some people just are not in the same places and do not see things the same way.

No more stated judgements are warranted or needed.
 

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Andy K said:
Ok, if we're going to split hairs, the song was written by Pete Seeger. The original 'verse' was taken from some old book or other written in antiquity. :wink:

Same guy who wrote:

"That which has been is that which will be, and that which has been done is that which will be done. So, there is nothing new under the sun." Eccl. 1:9

which also pertains to this discussion.
 

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gr82bart said:
I wonder if God thinks what He created was art or craft or was it just a Sunday pastime hobby?

Art.

Not sure, but we know that since He created Art, He has a grand sense of humor.
 

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Donald Miller said:
the tone that I have observed by those I have read is really not constructive to maintaining any type of future relationship.
Donald, you are way too uptight. You need to unwind.

I think the tone of you original post led to some of what happened here, that's why I never took it seriously. There is nothing wrong with discussions of creativity, motivation, esthetics, style, etc. They do tend to generate differing opinions so need to be handled without personal attacks.

So kick back, take a long, slow deep breath, put your feet up and sip some Glenfiddich (or whatever floats your boat) and relax - you'll feel better.

Regards,
Bob
 

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jimgalli said:
Not sure, but we know that since He created Art, He has a grand sense of humor.

Didn't he create grafitti too? The writing on the wall thing?
 

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darr said:
Donald I am disappointed! I offer you the opportunity to show us what you got when it comes to creative philosophies and you choose to hide. All talk and no action just as I had predicted.

Jeeezz....so if you did not like what he had to say to you, were you going to accuse him of sexual harrasement like you did to me in the LF forum?

I get the feeling Donald did not respond and critiqued your picture out of kidness, but since you decided to take a pot shot at me in the past it is time I return the favor.

Your picture is tired and trite, you can see many of them in photography books from the seventies, you know the kind, the grainy soft look of a ballerina looking demure gazing down at her feet in pastel colors. Or how about the same technique but with the woman sitting with a guitar? Sound familiar?
The treatment of your subjects and the techniques bring nothing new to the table.

So while I understand that this is your art and your taste, please dont use it to "show" us new treatments of the same ol, same ol, leave that to Schwab or Callow. I beleive this is the point Donald was trying to make, same old stuff regurgitated as new and fresh in the hopes people will fall for it. Frankly there are few people who have the talent to show us fresh new images of old subjects and IMO only a 3 or 4 in this forum. So, get off your high horse, you are not even close yet.

PS. You love to dish it out, I hope you are as good taking some of it this time.
 

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Oh Boy Oh Boy Oh Boy Oh Boy Oh Boy Oh Boy Oh Boy Oh Boy Oh Boy Oh Boy Oh Boy Oh Boy Oh Boy Oh Boy Oh Boy Oh Boy! Jorge's back. :D:D:D:D
 

Andy K

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jimgalli said:
Oh Boy Oh Boy Oh Boy Oh Boy Oh Boy Oh Boy Oh Boy Oh Boy Oh Boy Oh Boy Oh Boy Oh Boy Oh Boy Oh Boy Oh Boy Oh Boy! Jorge's back. :D:D:D:D


:D
 

Jorge

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jimgalli said:
Oh Boy Oh Boy Oh Boy Oh Boy Oh Boy Oh Boy Oh Boy Oh Boy Oh Boy Oh Boy Oh Boy Oh Boy Oh Boy Oh Boy Oh Boy Oh Boy! Jorge's back. :D:D:D:D
Not really back Jim, I am on my way to my treatments, but got tired of this person putting down people in this forum like she was some kind of photographic genious. I miss Helen b, at least she could take it as well as dish it out and damm the woman is smart.... :smile:
 

Dave Parker

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Glad to see you around Jorge, hope things are going well with the treatments.

R.
 

photomc

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Jorge said:
Not really back Jim, I am on my way to my treatments, but got tired of this person putting down people in this forum like she was some kind of photographic genious. I miss Helen b, at least she could take it as well as dish it out and damm the woman is smart.... :smile:


Hey Jorge....hang in there, this is where it gets tuff. You will be fine, just vent once in a while...It's good for you :smile:

Funny, was thinking last night I was missing Helen's input on this one. Like you said...the woman is smart!!
 

jd callow

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Jorge said:
... leave that to Schwab or Callow.

Damn I'm blushing.

Get better soon Bubba.

As an italian girlfriend would tell me when I was facing it: "Forza!"

:surprised:


'It' being a tough go of it.
 

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Donald Miller said:
O.K. it seems that Ray would prefer to attack rather then share his thoughts and experiences and the Bill and several others prefer the same. Regardless I do think that this is a vitally important subject for those who aspire to create and it is a vitally important subject for those of us who desire to gain a better understanding of ourselves and our place in life. So let me begin, if I may...

I will begin at what was for me the beginning.

Like many photographers, I think, I was impressed with the photography of Ansel Adams, Howard Bond, and others. I sought to emulate them and so I attended workshops and I made photographs much the same as those they made.

If you look at my website at the Landscape and Nature images, you will observe that many of those images are indicative of that genre. Lincoln Falls, Crystal River Morning Rain were both made in the late 1980s. These are pretty images. What I would consider today to be "calender art".

At about that same time, I was involved in beginning stages of recovery from alcoholism and beginning to incorporate a relationship to a higher power, or God if you will, into my daily life and my life considerations. That process had began in 1984 and continues today.

Also in the late 1980's because of that process, I began to make images that are to me, today, more meaningful because they were not seeking to emulate the pure landscape style of Adams, Burnbaum, or Bond. This is the time period that those images in my Transitions portfolio were made. I began to photograph totally different subject matter along with the landscape images. The Doorways and Doorway and Curtain image are both from that same period and of the different type. Doorways, Windows, Bridges, Paths, Light, are all things that can be defined as having dual meaning...They can be literal and they can be symbolic. They can be both or either depending on the individual.

The images in my Transition portfolio are photographs that speak to me symbollicaly and this is because of what was going on in my life at the time. This is the beginning of my belief that the camera does indeed point both ways, as Gordon described so very effectively in his response.

I believe that it is the nature of man to seek to define himself throughout his/her lifetime. It is in the act of photographing that we are afforded one means by which we accomplish this ongoing process. But how does this work?

Well returning to the "Granite Pool -Reflections" image in "Transitions" c.1989 What I saw much later is that the image conveyed a deeper understanding then what I recognized at the time of the exposure. The image today speaks to me symbolically in this way...The pool is symbolic of "mind". In examining the image, we can observe that there are stones below the surface of the water and a reflecton of a tree on the surface of the water. These two come very near but not completely touching each other. The reflection of the tree, being on the surface, represents conscious mind and the stones beneath the surface of the water represent the unconscious mind. The tension point created by there extreme proximity to each other is indicative of the tension within us at the juncture of conscious and unconscious mind. Examining the image still further, the lower right hand portion of the stone enclosure the shape is quite similar to a human leg and thigh. So the location of the pool could be observed and attributed as the place of birth because of the similarity of the female human form. Thus this image translates symbolically to "Mind is the place of birth"...which quite literally it is. Without human thought or creative motivation nothing of consequence occurs.

Other of my images carry symbolic meanins for me as well. They quite honestly may not carry the same meaning to someone else...but then again they may. Nor have all of my images been symbolic in meaning...or did I immediately cease making photographs of rocks, streams, or "known objects" because my understanding of how photographs reveal the photographer to himself/herself was incremental in development.

I think it is the nature of man to seek to make order from chaos. That is part of the creative process and it is the impetus behind some of our photographic efforts.

I have much more to discuss about this. I hope that others will now join this discussion without negativity, rancor, and personal attack. I think that we all have something to gain from exploring this. Thank you for allowing me to expound.


I've read most of this thread and I feel it conveys a lot about APUG. There are many here who are at a point in their life, and I suggest that Donald is there, who are trying to use the medium of photography to add greater meaning to their life. So to put it rudely, they are navel gazing.

The problem is eveyone here is here for a different reason, some to learn, some to teach, some to have fun and some like Donald who are attempting to use this site as a place to discuss the philosophical aspect of art, and it's motivation.

I feel the group is far to diverse and large to attempt this endeavor and it is just leading to frustration.

We all have very different reasons to photograph anything. Some do it for the art, after having learned the craft. Some do it, copying their heroes, to learn the craft and hope that it becomes art. Some have no art whatsoever in their soul and do it, and do it but can penetrate the art barrier. Some have the art part down, but don't have the patience or the skill to get the craft part down. And lastly some do it to get away from the old lady for a few hours.

I have played hockey at a medium level for many years and depending on the mood that I go to play in, I have, when frustrated at the play of someone on my team, yelled at them for making a stupid play. On one occassion, one of the recipients of my yelling said, "shut the fuck up, the scouts have all left the building, 20 years ago."

I have to remember that occasionally when I get pissed.

Most here photograph for fun/entertainment/expression and they are neither at a place of artistic excellence, or philosophical reflection in their work.

Some are, but they work more by instinct/intuition and do not engage in a lot of deep self reflection.

I respectfully submit that subjects like this are better discussed with an intimate group and usually there needs to be alcohol involved.


Michael
 
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