Apparent Confusion about Artistic Expression

[removed account4]

I understand what you mean by "trapped in reality"; what I believe is that the question of meaning is something evacuated out of the critical assessment of photography, and much visual arts as well.

Of course you can't be as pictorially radical as Cubism with photog, because it would probably involve collage or heavily pictorial technique that may take you out of the specificity of the photo medium.

i don't know michel ...

one could make the equiv, of a cubist painting using a camera ... it would take a little bit of experimenting to make a negative with multiple exposures from different perspectives, but ... at the same time no matter how good it is, it would be a hard sell--- and even harder for the viewer to connect with it, unless they were heavily (self)medicated or were somehow familiar with the italian futurists and cubists.

---john

 

[bill schwab]

one could make the equiv, of a cubist painting using a camera ...

Look at Sheeler's work with a camera. It is the photographic equivalent to what the cubists were doing. His work from the Rouge Plant here in Dearborn in particular. Truly amazing work.

Bill

 

[firecracker]

Thank you for the collection. I was not aware of that specific reference.

But I was more on the "inanimated objects" in a way. I should've mentioned about the examples of all the concrete and metal constructions that are merging into the pure "nature", like ivy on a brickwall or car wreckage in the middle of field or something.

Sorry I meant "correction" and "inanimate" objects.

 

[Peter De Smidt]

Creative expression, I strongly feel, is not about capturing what has been captured before...it is about capturing our own view of shapes, forms, patterns, textures and of symbolic meaning.

Hm. Artistic vision and technical ability are necessary for the production of worthwhile art. Neither, however, is sufficient by itself, although together they may be. I've never heard someone claim that one alone is sufficient, and so your original question is a bit of a strawman. I often hear people claim that one or the other (or both) are important, but that's a different, and very reasonable, claim.

If "it is about capturing our own view of shapes, forms, patterns, textures and of symbolic meaning", then photographs of the usual suspects can be worthwhile art, because the they represent the photographer's individual view of them.

Given the billions of images taken, I'm curious as to what subject matter, or view of such subject matter can be original enough to meet your criteria.

I'm also leary of symbolism. My high school enlish teacher had Isaac Asimov's guide to Shakespeare, and the teacher would go on and on about all of the symbolism ad nausem. Yuck. Being symbolic is neither necessary nor sufficient for a photograph being a worthwhile piece of art.

Consider two photographs. One is beautiful, while the other symbolizes beauty, but is itself not beautiful. Which would you like better? (Anything can be made to be a symbol.)

Symbolic art can be good art, but it's not all there is.

I suggest that a good artistic photograph is one that we value looking at purely for aesthetic reasons. The problem comes when we try to justify what we like on some more would-be objective level.

 

[Donald Miller]

This directed at no specific individual so let me say that at the outset. After a couple of days on this subject and several dust ups, I am really surprised that very few people actually spoke to the matter of what motivates or drives their personal creative expression. I may have missed some one but my memory indicates about four people out of almost 3000 views. So the viewers were either coming to witness the bare knuckles or they were coming to learn something and got a very limited menu. In either case because of the limited participation those who have questions probably came away wanting.

That leaves me to wonder does everyone have this figured out for themselves and are just reluctant to talk about it? Or have very few given any thought to it and for that reason they are reluctant to talk about it?

There has been the usual transference of technical speak into this topic and attempts at giving advice and views...but very few people talk about where they live on this subject. Not surprising since this site seems to be long on technical and short on artistic expression or at least discussion of it.

Interesting...

 

[Donald Miller]

My creativity derives from my soul; past and present. I have this unique card catalog that I carry around with me that is full of ideas, insights, mistakes, successes, etc. It is only available to me and I use it when I work, perform, communicate, etc.



Sounds like you want us to give you our recipes for creative success. I know that I cannot do that. A little voice in my head says not to.




I think many people on this site contribute about creativity, you just do not get it.You keep coming back to find answers for questions others are not asking. You act out compulsively about seeking knowledge about a process that is not a verbal happening, but a spiritual awakening. If your in the flow, there are no questions, just energy to produce. I posted a picture that I thought you would comment on since you insinuated that my art may be "shallow". I gave you the opportunity to critique and I welcome your response.

I would respond but I probably couldn't raise my voice high enough to reach your elevated position.

 

[MattKing]

I am really surprised that very few people actually spoke to the matter of what motivates or drives their personal creative expression.

That leaves me to wonder does everyone have this figured out for themselves and are just reluctant to talk about it?...but very few people talk about where they live on this subject. Not surprising since this site seems to be long on technical and short on artistic expression or at least discussion of it.

Interesting...

Donald:

I take photographs for a large variety of reasons. I also look at photographs for a large variety of reasons.

Some of those reasons are related to issues of "personal creative expression", while others are related to entertainment, or record making, or simply pleasure.

I get joy out of both experiencing the photography of others, and making photographs myself. I also enjoy many of the more mundane benefits as well.

To my mind, if any photograph I create expresses something to me, that expression involves some level of artistry.

If any photograph I create expresses something to someone else, that expression also involves some level of artistry.

In either case, that joy of creation, or the joy I get from others' creativity, is what motivates me to be creative, or to share in the creativity of others.

I don't really care if one of my photographs is similar to some other person's photograph. I would rarely want to copy anyone (except possibly as an exercise) but I don't worry about being the first to express something in an effective way. All that concerns me is that I do express it in an effective way, and that I do so myself, using the skills, knowledge and talents that I have (such as they are).

Groundbreaking artistic work is really important, but I don't need to be the groundbreaker.

To draw a parallel - I always enjoy listening to a fine musician putting his or her "spin" on another musician's standard.

Bring on those waterfalls or peppers! - I haven't finished having fun trying to create something there that speaks to me, and might speak to others as well.

Please note that the word "I" is used throughout this post. I would never think it appropriate to assume that what works for me would work the same way for others.

I will recommend the "having fun" approach though, because photography is such fun!

 

[Donald Miller]

Matt, Thank you for responding from your personal experiences...there are some here that have asked for direction...Jeremy Moore is one that comes to mind...I am sure that he and others appreciate your willingness to contribute. I certainly do. Thanks.

 

[toddstew]

Hi Donald et al,
I have been following this thread for the past couple of days now, and part of it is because I rubberneck at accident sites like everybody else, but also because I feel like you are asking a legitimate question. My biggest thought(my thoughts aren't that big) is in regards to you using the word symbolism. In my mind symbolism means that you as the producer of the piece has a meaning and that meaning can limit what others can take from said piece. I think that a word such as allegory or allude be substituted. These words lend themselves to more of an open-ended interpretation to a work of art(not craft).
Just my thoughts on this potentially interesting idea.
Todd

 

[Ray Heath]

excuse me Donald,
re not answering -
your original post is just too convoluted, you then went on and on about symbolism and belittled myself and others, i did in my own way offer an answer, you just chose to see it as a personal attack

ironically enough, i actually agree with most other points you've raised

you just started out badly by elevating yourself above the rest of us

oh, i forgot i'm on your shit list, so apparently you won't even see this, your loss

 

[Jeremy]

Of course I have to chime in again while highly intoxicated, but maybe that will lessen some inhibitions I have from talking to such a (at least personally) respected audience.

I made this photograph after being left behind by someone very close to me

And then I made some images while in Japan such as this one

After being told by the same person (after spending $2k to visit her) that it just wasn't going to work out which, to me, expressed my feelings of a tumultuous nature, while still trying to attain a personal calm.

Recently I was again dropped by someone I was seeing and as I have found myself at the bottom of a glass for over a week now trying to cope (which is a horrible idea and never works, I just can't stop from trying to dull the pain) I made this image while out with friends who just wanted me to cheer up:

My new project is to take a number of my close friends into the studio to do 8x10 headshots of them, contact print them in palladium, and then give the photos to them with a sharpie and pencil and let them respond to the image I made in response to their presence. The idea is to form a stronger bond with the friends I still have around me and to learn something about myself and them in the process. Then, after they have returned the image to me, I plan on photographing them again in response to whatever they did to the 8x10 contact and place them next to their altered photo. I don't know what will come of this project, but it is a personal goal to meet over the next 6 months and one which I think will lead me down a path of personal enrichment and growth both with myself and with the few friends I still have left.

I don't know if this meets the original idea behind this thread, but these images and the headshots I plan to take hold a considerable amount of emotional symbolism for me.

 

[firecracker]

Of course I have to chime in again while highly intoxicated, but maybe that will lessen some inhibitions I have from talking to such a (at least personally) respected audience.

I made this photograph after being left behind by someone very close to me

And then I made some images while in Japan such as this one

After being told by the same person (after spending $2k to visit her) that it just wasn't going to work out which, to me, expressed my feelings of a tumultuous nature, while still trying to attain a personal calm.

Recently I was again dropped by someone I was seeing and as I have found myself at the bottom of a glass for over a week now trying to cope (which is a horrible idea and never works, I just can't stop from trying to dull the pain) I made this image while out with friends who just wanted me to cheer up:

Did you ever see the film, "Before Sunrise"?

By the way, I like the third picture. The background is really nice.

And if you have more of those as a series, you probably won't need the words to tell your story.

 

[Andy K]

This directed at no specific individual so let me say that at the outset. After a couple of days on this subject and several dust ups, I am really surprised that very few people actually spoke to the matter of what motivates or drives their personal creative expression. I may have missed some one but my memory indicates about four people out of almost 3000 views. So the viewers were either coming to witness the bare knuckles or they were coming to learn something and got a very limited menu. In either case because of the limited participation those who have questions probably came away wanting.

That leaves me to wonder does everyone have this figured out for themselves and are just reluctant to talk about it? Or have very few given any thought to it and for that reason they are reluctant to talk about it?

There has been the usual transference of technical speak into this topic and attempts at giving advice and views...but very few people talk about where they live on this subject. Not surprising since this site seems to be long on technical and short on artistic expression or at least discussion of it.

Interesting...

Donald, look at my photographs and you tell me, because I don't have a clue what drives me. I just have a need to make photographs that please me. I don't know why. There is no focus that I can put my finger on..

 

[Drew B.]

All of the trees, snowdrifts, clouds, rocks, and waterfalls in the world are not new. I see those things every minute of my life...show me something new!!!!

I read the first message and then the last two...but I picked out the above quote to talk about:

Artistic expression is about what the image maker wants... whether trees, snowdrifts, clouds, rocks or waterfalls...nothing to do with anything else.

 

[Peter De Smidt]

I photograph scenes that I think will make an interesting picture. The only thing I'm trying to express is "hey, isn't this an interesting picture?". Photography doesn't have to be about expression.

 

[Ed Sukach]

That leaves me to wonder does everyone have this figured out for themselves and are just reluctant to talk about it? Or have very few given any thought to it and for that reason they are reluctant to talk about it?

You do realize that by that statement, you have limited possible replies to two (2)...?
I can easily see that there could be many more - possibly, I have pondered over this - "What motivates me to create" endlessly, until I have decided to conserve the energy necessary to select one particular reason ... and re-direct it to doing.
"Why do you climb Mt. Everest?" - "Because it is there", certainly evades the question, but it may well be as "good" an answer as anything else.

"What motivates me" - or "Where do I find the inspiration..." ...? There may well be answers, but the motivation here is to DO, not spend my life trying to figure out the one true answer to either.

"Reluctant to talk about it?" No, not particularly. Some interesting discussions and insights into the being of others have been the results of conversations based on this subject.

"Reluctant to talk about it - endlessly, with no resolution in sight ... and allowing that talk to displace doing?" YES!! Very reluctant.

And now .... There is a time for reaping, and a time to sow; a time for working and a time for playing ... a time for all things under God's heaven. There is a time for talking and a time for doing - and "doing" takes precedence at the moment.

 

[Andy K]

And now .... There is a time for reaping, and a time to sow; a time for working and a time for playing ... a time for all things under God's heaven. There is a time for talking and a time for doing - and "doing" takes precedence at the moment.

You a Byrds fan Ed?

 

[BWGirl]

You a Byrds fan Ed?

Do you even want to know where that really came from?????

I'm one of the 3000 'views' and 0 'comments'. There's a good reason for it... I have this really strong aversion to endless 'navel-gazing'. My daughter has a BS in Nursing and a BS in Psychology; her 'ex' has a Masters in Social Work... I had to endure 10 years of "I feel" and "It really makes me feel" and "I am just not sure what drives me"... so, sorry, I am just a person who loves photography, shoots what she likes, and hopes that she will have a nice photo or two after the first 10,000.

 

[bill schwab]

Donald I am disappointed! I offer you the opportunity to show us what you got when it comes to creative philosophies and you choose to hide. All talk and no action just as I had predicted.

I suspect I too am on Donald's ignore list, so this will most likely fall on deaf ears. Funny how someone can start a "discussion" but not participate when he hears something he does not like or is outside his limited grasp and vilifying those that seriously question his credibility as lacking positivity and "attackers". From reading and re-reading this thread I have come to the conclusion that although Donald Miller walks a good walk, he hasn't really learned to talk the talk yet. The need to constantly speak about creativity and expression suggests to me that he might be having a hard time of it in his own mind. The old "Those that can, do" kind of thing. In certain cases it is my experience that those that can't (yet) talk about it ad nauseum, project an air of pretentiousness, but have very little substance behind them. I'm wondering if he has ever had any formal training in the arts? If so, I think he might find his discussion of self-expression with terms like, "Creative expression, I strongly feel, is not about capturing what has been captured before...it is about capturing our own view of shapes, forms, patterns, textures and of symbolic meaning." a bit on the pedestrian side. He speaks in terms of graphics, but to be truly expressive in your work, these fundamentals need to be built upon to go anywhere. These building blocks are considered only the first level of "Equivalence' or phenomenology which is what it appears Mr. Miller is striving for in his work. If he has not made himself familiar with this, he might do well to read Minor White's article on the subject.

Bill

 

[gr82bart]

I'm one of the 3000 'views' and 0 'comments'. There's a good reason for it... I have this really strong aversion to endless 'navel-gazing'. ...snip... so, sorry, I am just a person who loves photography, shoots what she likes, and hopes that she will have a nice photo or two after the first 10,000.

What she said. I like what I like. End of my philosophy.

Art.

 

[bill schwab]

You a Byrds fan Ed?

Andy, The Byrds only "covered" the tune ... Crosby, McQuinn, Clarke, Clark and Hillman did not write the thing.

Bill

 

[Andy K]

Andy, The Byrds only "covered" the tune ... Crosby, McQuinn, Clarke, Clark and Hillman did not write the thing.

Bill

I know. It was written by Pete Seeger, but The Byrds cover is the more well known.

 

[gr82bart]

There is a time for talking and a time for doing - and "doing" takes precedence at the moment.

On the internet there are lot of people that talk about sex. The ones doing it don't use a computer.

Art.

 

[Andy K]

On the internet there are lot of people that talk about sex. The ones doing it don't use a computer.

Art.

B.. b... but that's what the net is for!!

 

[bill schwab]

I know. It was written by Pete Seeger, but The Byrds cover is the more well known.

Uuuuhhhh.... Pete Seeger only covered it as well. Go back... wayyyy back. Ecclesiastes if my limited religious education serves me?

Bill