Apparent Confusion about Artistic Expression

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Troy Hamon

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I just posted a reply to Jeremy's thread that seems along the lines of this one...but of course I don't think my answers will be satisfactory in either case. In summary, I think for some people the technique IS the style or expression, and for others it is irrelevant, they couldn't see the point in learning enough technique to understand the question but they produce very personal art. I don't see it so much as chicken and egg for photography as a whole, more a question of whether any individual photographer needs the chicken or the egg to make THEIR personal expression.
 

MurrayMinchin

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Donald Miller said:
I will try to bring this to a point where you might understand. Let's take the images in my Transitions portfolio. Each of those have symbolic connotations.

I'm so sorry Donald...but the light refracting from my sloped forehead is reflecting off the monitor and through the knotted thatch of my uni-brow. I'll brush it aside and we can all have a look at your portfolio;

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Again, I see nothing new. Without you're telling me specifically how these are symbolic to you, all I'm left with is the ponderous weight of simplistic symbolism of all the images I've seen before just like these.

Why do you have to look down on us...you provoke this kind of reaction...

Murray
 
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Donald Miller

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MurrayMinchin said:
I'm so sorry Donald...but the light refracting from my sloped forehead is reflecting off the monitor and through the knotted thatch of my uni-brow. I'll brush it aside and we can all have a look at your portfolio;

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Again, I see nothing new. Without you're telling me specifically how these are symbolic to you...all I'm left with is the ponderous weight of simplistic symbolism of all the images I've seen before just like these.

Why do you have to look down on us...you provoke this kind of reaction...

Murray

Murray, Murray, Murray...you would benefit from not offering such demeaning and abrasive commentary and perhaps then we could have a more pleasant interchange.
 

MurrayMinchin

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Donald Miller said:
I will try to bring this to a point where you might understand.

Yeah...right!

Murray
 

bill schwab

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MurrayMinchin said:
Why do you have to look down on us...you provoke this kind of reaction...
Actually I have to believe that Donald has just been to see "Art School Confidential" and is pulling all our legs. I think I get it now Donald. Hilarious!

:smile:

Bill
 
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Donald Miller

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Bill, You can, of course, assign any definition that you want on things. But I assure you that I am sincere in initiating this discussion. What is so amazing to me is that those of us who are intending to be creative artists have such a reluctance to discuss the very thing that we claim to be engaged in. Do you understand why that would happen?
 
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Hello Donald and APUG,

I think one of the issues you might run into on internet forums is that most participants will be more technically oriented, and most discussions are more technically oriented. Nothing wrong with that, just that artist expression is rarely discussed. I think some of that is evident in so-called photography magazines, especially those that list what gear and settings were used to capture which images. Quite likely there is a group that would be completely immune to any mention of technical details, or quite happy to plug along with the Flower, Person, Mountain, or other Program setting.

Techniques and technical details can become important when a particular result does not happen, then the search is on to find a solution. You might also find many engineers, scientists, or technically oriented individuals taking up photography as an enthusiastic endeavor. Such people might find a better connection to their own ways of expression through emphasis of technical prowess.

Another group will enjoy the difficulties expressed in their prints. Consider that it is easier to drop off film at a lab, and have them do the work, though some will see that as less genuine. Of course, I do my own oil paintings, but I would not consider making my own brushes; I have mixed my own paints from raw materials, but that was mostly just to see if I could do that. My feeling is that if an image is strong and connects with a viewer, then it could have been printed in B/W, as Platinum or Palladium, or even offset press into book format. However, some will see the Platinum print as the best or true expression, despite that many might enjoy the same image in a coffee table book.

Some people will look down upon certain technical aspects: people doing oil paintings might criticize those who use acrylics, people doing Platinum prints might look down upon those who do B/W prints, others might criticize anyone who just takes the photos and lets the lab print them. This is more of the idea of validation of endeavor, an idea that the more difficult or time consuming paths to the end works are somehow more valid or genuine. Luckily, I think this is rare. (Note: I have stretched my own canvases for my oil painting, I have made Platinum prints, and I have made my own B/W (silver) prints in the darkroom, but I have never looked down upon anyone who chose to do things differently, even if they took an even more difficult route).

Symbolism also reflects the perceptions of the artist/photographer. It has been stated that the camera points both directions. Our technical choices might reflect a bit of ourselves, though sometimes that can be a factor of economics (case in point: I would enjoy using an ALPA 12). My own choices reflect how I see, more than what I see. Most of my artistic/symbolic choices come from my desire to tell stories or spur the imagination in others. It does not matter to me if someone sees exactly what I thought, nor if they know why I chose a particular way to express my creative visions.

So for your questions, I feel that our cultures greatly influence our choices, and our lives. They also affect our perceptions of the world around us. Many are so busy that they miss things, so I sometimes work to show things people don't realize. That might be a bit of William Eggelston to some, images that some will not find of interest.

My short and quick approach to fine art is stated in the header description of my website provoke thought, invent the future, discover you true self, which is about as condensed as I can state it. I still think there needs to be some connection to the viewer, which is the reason I state discover your true self. An example, many enjoy hiking, the outdoors, remote locations, etc; those people might find landscape images much more interesting; that is their connection to the images. With provoke thought, I think that is sort of self explanatory, though that does go back to what I mentioned about story telling. The phrase invent the future might also be expressed as a question: where are we headed?

Anyway, APUG can be an unnecessarily harsh group at times, so I expect some to dismiss what I wrote entirely. I don't think you can exhibit fine art, nor do creative work, without getting a thick skin towards criticism. Don't get me wrong, there are some great people here, I just wish they would be more noticeable at times. You posted some intriguing questions, and I hope this becomes a big Hot Topic.

I express myself better visually than I do in writing, so if what I wrote did not make sense, then please feel free to ask more questions. I don't expect agreement to what I wrote, and I respect the views of others. I wish technical barriers were less of a hindrance than they seem, since I feel some of the feeling of needing technical skills might be keeping some away from photography. A painter friend of mine has recently gained an interest in photography, but she is wary of the technical skills needed to express what she wants . . . maybe in this thread I can find ways to convince her to take up photography.

Ciao!

Gordon
 

MurrayMinchin

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Well now, it has been a while since I've attended those two fine art schools with all that art history & stuff, and quite a while too since that college photography course with the instructor who's major was in psychology...but I'm really trying here!

Anybody else see the symbolism specific to Donald?

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You poked me in the eye first :sad:

Murray
 
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Donald Miller

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Gordon,

Thank you for your contribution and for your well thought out and expressed comments. I agree with all that you have stated.

I do hope, too, that those who are skeptical of new directions and new agendas would be open to discussing and exploring these with all of us together.

Positive sharing of our own thoughts and experiences benefit all of us. For those who have not considered this aspect then there is no need for negativity and critical comments. Contempt prior to investigation benefits no one.

Thanks once again and I look forward to further contributions.
 

Jim Chinn

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I think a lot of the time people try to hard to put meaning and feeling into their photographs. Maybe we sometimes we fall back on the crutch of newer and better technique and tools to try to put something into an image that just is not there.

There is a Taoist ideal of Wu wei (?). IIRC it is the idea that one can only turly achieve something by first letting it go. I can't really describe it but I know it when I see it in a photograph or any work of art. It is the difference between an image or work that is common place and one that truly moves me.

Think of a favorite image. If you look at it and think about the concept of Wu wei it is almost as if the subject has sought out the photographer and said "here I am, take my picture". Of course it is the knowledge and experience of the photographer that produces the final result. But sometimes the greatest knowledge is to know not to try to hard.
 

bill schwab

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Donald Miller said:
What is so amazing to me is that those of us who are intending to be creative artists have such a reluctance to discuss the very thing that we claim to be engaged in. Do you understand why that would happen?
Donald, I can only respond from my own personal perspective as I know not what others may be thinking. For me, too much talk about the subject of creativity and my feelings of my own work simply kill the process. It is that simple for me. The same as too much talk and thought of technical prowess kills my spirit and creativity. If this places me on a lower intellectual level than you and others, so be it. I've heard it many times before from those who rode this crazy train far less a distance than I have yet traveled. I think it is wonderful that others can talk a blue streak about their creative process. More power to them. But I would never consider someone who has made that choice to have less intellectual capacity than I.

I do not disagree with your initial discussion and I in no way feel it is invalid. But truthfully, it is nothing new. I am surprised that you appear to feel that it is. For you, there is apparently great symbolism in your work. Are others to be patronized and belittled because they see nothing different than they have seen in literally thousands of images? I'm serious Donald. The way your discussion was framed seems to assume that you have some better grasp on the creative process than anyone else reading your post. That your pictures of walls and peeling paint somehow have more validity than anyone else here making those same well-seasoned and often photographed subjects. I'm not saying they are not beautiful and technically perfect, but am I to feel less of a human because they say nothing to me, but do to you?

Look, I can be all for creative discussion on this site. I think we can both agree that there is perhaps too little of this on APUG. I think what got my hackles up as well as some others posting is the perhaps wrongly perceived holier than thou attitude you projected. As was said more eloquently than I could possibly have said it in a private message that just came to me, your "... call for discussion would go over much better if it had been made from lower ground."

Peace, Bill
 

MurrayMinchin

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Donald Miller said:
Positive sharing of our own thoughts and experiences benefit all of us. For those who have not considered this aspect then there is no need for negativity and critical comments. Contempt prior to investigation benefits no one.

Positive Thoughts, by Donald;

"I observe lots of work that is copies of something that has been done before. That in my estimation is flattering to some but it has the smell of mediocrity all over it."

"Perhaps if you will observe with an open mind you may learn something of benefit to you."

"Do you have the ability or knowledge to intelligently discuss this matter apart from trying to subtley diminish it?"

"Bill I think that I have the intellectual capacity to intelligently discuss things which you apparently have no grasp of..."

Sigh...

Donald, I don't have a problem with the central idea in your original post. I do have a problem with your condescending tone and the lack of photographic evidence. Just like in the film and chemistry forums, where if somebody makes claim to a new film / exposure / development combination discovery, there's an expectation for the demonstration of proof - I don't think the Ethics and Philosophy forum should be any different.

Murray
 

MurrayMinchin

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Now I get it...

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Murray
 

livemoa

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MurrayMinchin said:
Well now, it has been a while since I've attended those two fine art schools with all that art history & stuff, and quite a while too since that college photography course with the instructor who's major was in psychology...but I'm really trying here!

Anybody else see the symbolism specific to Donald?

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You poked me in the eye first :sad:

Murray

Murray, I have looked at the images (as you challenged some one to) and see in them choices and decisions. Doors and paths that are potentialy open and/or closed, windows that ask you to look through them. I think, and this may be because I have been working a lot on similar ideas in my art, that there is a religous symbolisim in them. Nice photos but a little to modernist for my taste.

I think that the problem is that to a lot of the people who post here the word art is a word that is loded with emotional baggage.
 

df cardwell

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One of the difficult things about forums and e-mails is that we can't really judge tone, and intent, very well. I know I get riled when a writer's style hits me wrong. God knows I probably irritate most of the folks around here, and they probably OUGHT to be irritated. But we're a diverse group, and there's probably more common ground here than we might think. When we get off the beaten paths, though, it's uncomfortable. I like rough edges around a question, myself. There's no wrong way to make a good picture, and the same should hold true for asking a question.

This isn't a question that will appeal to everybody, any more than Ultra Large Format trivia appeals to everybody, or how to make one's own collodion is a question that ought to be explored at the dinner table.

It's not up to me to preach about anything, especially courtesy. But - by way of comparison - last weekend I went to a dance and asked a girl to dance. She declined, politely, and that was that. I suspect had it been an APUG dance, she might have spent the rest of the evening following me around screaming "YOU SUCK".

I like to think about questions like Miller has asked, and it's a relief to talk about something new: and the WAY a question is put is what MAKES it new. You know, like a good picture ?

I'll hang on to this thread, and see where it goes. But there really isn't much to be gained by sticking around if you aren't interested.

If you don't like the question, why not just move along, and get along ?
 

Ray Heath

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g'day Donald
i've also looked at your "Transitions" portfolio
great images, well presented

but as for deeper and symbolic meanings that are important to you, i don't get them, you haven't expressed them in a way i can comprehend

so if these symbolic meanings are the important thing, for you, then i must conclude that these images are failures
 

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I'm kind of disappointed...

I'm disappointed to see the way many people here are reacting to Donald's challenge...! I don't think there was ANYTHING even remotely 'holier-than-thou' in his post. And yet many seem to be reacting in a heavily defensive way. I mean - what the hell's up with THAT???!! Come on. It doesn't mean that the guy is purporting to have an exclusive license to artistic mastery. It just means that he's finding the tone here a little bit, uh, monochrome maybe. I sense a general fear of actually talking about images, what works and what doesn't. It's pretty easy to hide behind one's shiny equipment sometimes. Why is this? Can't we talk about image making here? I fully agree with Donald I think - maybe there's a website/forum where those of us who DO want to talk about such things can go...? I dunno. If anyone has any ideas...
 
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Donald Miller

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Ray,Bill and Murray,

By your own words you fail to grasp symbolic meaning in images that have symbolic meaning to me. It really is not up to me to explain what my personal take on something is. If you fail to grasp it then you fail to grasp it. Others do grasp it and that is as it should be.

I guess what this amounts to is that it is a lot like me traveling to China and because I fail to understand Chinese expression I would tell all that Chinese are ignorant, misinformed, and misguided. I would ask you is the problem in that case one that exists with the Chinese or is it a problem that I have.

Quite apparently there are those who have never experienced this aspect of photography and just when they thought they had artistic expression in their photography nailed down along comes a knotty board.

So for those who don't understand and who fail to grasp this valid aspect of creative photographic expression you can either discuss it intelligently by indicating this is new and you fail to understand or you can continue to act the part of ignorant oafs who participate by attacking the new and the unknown.

Either way the loss or the gain is yours. There are those here like DF Cardwell, Gordon, Jeremy Moore and others who are interested and see the benefit to be gained in discussion...then there are a few who are acting in the way that they typically do.

Those who wish to participate by being a positive influence are certainly welcome to discuss this. Those who deign to judge and attack I ask you to go spread you BS elsewhere.
 

bill schwab

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Donald Miller said:
Those who wish to participate by being a positive influence are certainly welcome to discuss this. Those who deign to judge and attack I ask you to go spread you BS elsewhere.
I don't see why the discussion of mediocre, overdone artistic expression in photos is any less valid than discussion of a mediocre thesis on the Apparent Confusion of Artistic Expression.

Look, I "grasp" symbolism. It's easy to attach symbolism to an overdone subject and call it new. A common crutch in art school. I'll quote you in your initial post "...show me something new!!!". It doesn't impress me when you back-up your degradation of "photographing "known subjects" until hell freezes over" by stating that there is some almighty symbolism in your photographs that to others are little more than beautifully executed visions of those same "known subjects".

Bill
 

scootermm

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interesting thread. and I actually appreciated the original post.
However, the sad thing (or a Catch 22 in my mind) is that it seems pointless to discuss on something like an internet forum. the catch 22 being that the internet forum is what brings the diverse group of people together and affords the opportunity to discuss such things. yet, these things being difficult to discuss without offending someone somehow, or without misinterpreting.

honestly, I find the discussion of great interest and intriguing. but would be much easier to do over a Lager and some beer nuts. :smile:

I find myself writting/thinking/discussing this sort of thing whenever I can find the time too.

one thing for sure... this was posted earlier in the thread...
"I think that the problem is that to a lot of the people who post here the word art is a word that is loded with emotional baggage."

that seems tantamount to saying "the problem with chicken is that its made up of only chicken"
is emotion not one of the most integral parts of art?
 
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Donald Miller

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billschwab said:
I don't see why the discussion of mediocre, overdone artistic expression in photos is any less valid than discussion of a mediocre thesis on the Apparent Confusion of Artistic Expression.

Look, I "grasp" symbolism. It's easy to attach symbolism to an overdone subject and call it new. A common crutch in art school. I'll quote you in your initial post "...show me something new!!!". It doesn't impress me when you back-up your degradation of "photographing "known subjects" until hell freezes over" by stating that there is some almighty symbolism in your photographs that to others are little more than beautifully executed visions of those same "known subjects".

Bill

Bill, It seems that you have taken offense that was not intended and certainly not interperted by some...so that makes me wonder why you are so damned sensitive. You grasp symbolism and yet you fail to be able to discuss it...What the heck is that about ? I have said all that I am going to say on this subject to you in view of your evident attitude on this...it is totally unproductive...there are those who want to discuss it and that will take place probably in a more private setting so that your sensitive feelings will not be offended. I wish you good day sir.
 

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For those of us who have never had any kind of schooling in art, and are simply enjoying making photographs that please us to look at, perhaps someone could post the rules as to what is artistic impression.

<edit> I'm not being sarcastic, I genuinely want to know.
 

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Sparky said:
I don't think there was ANYTHING even remotely 'holier-than-thou' in his post. And yet many seem to be reacting in a heavily defensive way....

I agree.
 
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Donald Miller

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Andy K said:
For those of us who have never had any kind of schooling in art, and are simply enjoying making photographs that please us to look at, perhaps someone could post the rules as to what is artistic impression.

<edit> I'm not being sarcastic, I genuinely want to know.

Andy, that is what a discussion on the creative expression within photography would be about...there are no rules...but perhaps we could come to a fuller understanding of why we photograph and what our photographs tell about us...I encourage you to read the post that Gordon stated...it expresses in a very nice mature way what he sees and what I see as being a condition of our lives as photographers and creative artists.
 

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hang on Donald
it may be you who doesn't want to discuss these issues

as i wrote above, your images do not mean the same to me as they do to you, that is not a failing in me or in you, it is because of our differences in culture/experience/history/background/beliefs/values and a 'failing' in any art

don't tell me, and others, i don't understand sybolism, you don't know me, nor do you know what i respond to

as an aside, i was previously interested in why a talented photographer would not show his final/best work, what is the sybolism in that? you wouldn't discuss that issue either
 
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