Apo-Nikkor process lens question

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Dan Fromm

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Yes. My thought for now was lens cap method. I'll do some reading up again regarding he more common process lenses that get mounted in shutters (24" Apo Artar comes to mind), If I need to start factoring in a shutter search and/or custom mounting I'll likely end up back in Fujinon C land.
Hmm. My longest lens is a 900/10 ApoSaphir. Great heavy monster. Did I mention that it is fat? I solved the timing problem by having SKGrimes make an adapter to hold an industrial (no diaphragm) Compound #5 that I had lying around in front of the lens.

My shutter solution for my 610 AN is different. I wanted to use it, also the 900, on a Baby (2x3) Bertha that I built. Baby was a mistake. Anyway, after Adam Dau at SKG assured me that the shutter could support the 610 I had him make an adapter to hold it in front of a Copal #1. Even so I supported it with a crutch.

Re crutches. Baby was built around a Cambo SC-1 (2x3). The front crutch, which supported the lens, was modified 4x5 Cambo SC standard. The rear crutch, which supported Baby's 2x3 RB Ser. B. SLR module, was a cheap lab jack.
 

cullah

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I've been through a thread or 2 on the largeformatphotography forum, I've seen that really nice page of data that's linked here and there, but I am still confused. My confusion is mostly regarding the 360mm f9 lens options.

Some of the info seems to say that if the min aperture is 128 then that is one of the W.A Apo lenses. I have now seen pictures of more than one with "W.A. Apo" engraved on the barrel face.

Are all of the W.A Apo lenses engraved? That larger degree of view and larger image circle is enticing, but it triples the price of the lens. I feel like we're either in Fujinon territory where there are many slight variations of some of the lenses both cosmetically and functionally, or Nikon made it clear and I'm making it complicated.

I use a 240mm apo-nikkor on my 8x10. It more than covers .
 
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MTGseattle

MTGseattle

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I do see some interesting things here and there.


There are a couple of Docter Apo Germinars in shutter on the 'bay right now too. They are asking small car prices however.
 

DREW WILEY

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C.W. is mainly a Leica Store; go figure. I've had a 760 Apo Nikkor laying around forever which I cannibalized from a huge process camera headed to landfill. But Docter Apo Germinars were never made in significant quantity and still have high appeal to a limited number of people.
 
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Man. I missed out on process lenses being relatively cheap by a few years I guess. Anything being suspected of 8x10 or larger coverage is hitting close to $500 in longer than 500mm focal lengths. I thought the Apo-Nikkor 610mm was going to be a winner for me until I read that it weighs 3.19 pounds. All of this is just leaning me towards the Fujinon C 600. What's another $2500-3k towards a lens in the grand scheme I guess? Good grief.

I know I started this as an Apo Nikkor thread, but any other clues for something 500-600 or equivalent for 8x10? I think a 19" lens is only approximately 480mm right?

I picked up a set of process lenses a few years ago, very inexpensively. Plan on modifying a Graflex SG body as a shutter and mount it to a Linhof Color Kardan 8x10.
The set included the following.

Rodenstock
Trinar 105mm f4.5
APO-Ronar-CL 360mm/14” f9
APO-Ronar-CL 600mm/24” f9
APO-Ronar-CL 1070mm/42” f14

Konica
Hexanon GRII 150mm f9
Hexanon GRII 260mm f9

Goerz
APO ‘Red Dot’ Artar 16.5” f9.5 (420mm)
‘Red Dot’ Artar 24” f11 (610mm)
Artar 35” f15 (890mm)
(Schneider label) APO ‘Red Dot’ Artar 42” f14 (1070mm)

Kodak
Copying Ektanon 18.5” f10 (470mm)
 

David Lindquist

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I do see some interesting things here and there.


There are a couple of Docter Apo Germinars in shutter on the 'bay right now too. They are asking small car prices however.
Be interesting to me to see how the cells are mated to the shutter. Looks like the threads that screwed in to the original barrel are un-utilized and out there for all to see. Also the aperture scale is for whatever lens was originally mounted in that shutter so I doubt this was done by SK Grimes.

David
 
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MTGseattle

MTGseattle

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Time to bend the thread a bit more. I've been reading up on some of the convertible lenses that have been offered. The Cooke xva is well out of my current budget. There's a complete Wisner set on the auction site right now but that is out of budget too.
I've done a lot of reading on the Gundlach Turner Reich stuff since there's one up for auction right now. If we travel back in time 12 years or so, it would be a $100-200 lens and I would likely scoop it up. In today's strange market though it is listed for $300+. The serial number on front and rear does match which is a plus. The long cell/cells are a 28" configuration. This seems like a budget friendly option to get a somewhat long lens in a shutter. I understand there is no coating.

Should I gamble? There are favorable comments regarding the G.T.R. triple convertibles floating around the various forums. Anecdotally, there seem to be people who landed a "good" sample from the first acquisition and those who have bought/sold many to get a "good" one.
I don't think there's any other under $400 options for a 24-28" lens in a shutter these days And I doubt I could get any barrel offerings mounted up for a total of $400 or less.
 

DREW WILEY

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Depends on your expectations, degree of enlargement, etc. Don't expect the old convertibles to be equal to modern process lenses. The problem with casket sets is that all your eggs are in one basket (er, casket). If something goes wrong with the old shutter, every single lens configuration is disabled. There's also more risk of introducing internal dust screwing on and unscrewing the elements over and over again. But yeah, asking prices for some lenses have gone up quite a bit the past couple of years.
When they fail to sell, those might drop back down.
 
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Lachlan Young

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Time to bend the thread a bit more. I've been reading up on some of the convertible lenses that have been offered. The Cooke xva is well out of my current budget. There's a complete Wisner set on the auction site right now but that is out of budget too.
I've done a lot of reading on the Gundlach Turner Reich stuff since there's one up for auction right now. If we travel back in time 12 years or so, it would be a $100-200 lens and I would likely scoop it up. In today's strange market though it is listed for $300+. The serial number on front and rear does match which is a plus. The long cell/cells are a 28" configuration. This seems like a budget friendly option to get a somewhat long lens in a shutter. I understand there is no coating.

Should I gamble? There are favorable comments regarding the G.T.R. triple convertibles floating around the various forums. Anecdotally, there seem to be people who landed a "good" sample from the first acquisition and those who have bought/sold many to get a "good" one.
I don't think there's any other under $400 options for a 24-28" lens in a shutter these days And I doubt I could get any barrel offerings mounted up for a total of $400 or less.

Wollensak made coated triple convertibles in the form of the Raptar 1a.
 
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Nice collection, but the Trinar is a triplet taking lens from an inexpensive 2x3 (6x9 in metric) camera.

The Trinar was the oddball of the set, physically. Certainly wouldn’t cover the larger formats being discussed. Thanks for the information; being unfamiliar with this particular lens.
 
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MTGseattle

MTGseattle

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@emeraldcity_grain Did you acquire that whole list in one single sale? That's quite a line up.

There are a couple of $100 process lenses I've been watching. They seem to be in nice shape but are in focal lengths I don't really want/need. Still, a minimal cash outlay will at least let me see if I am willing to mess around with lens with no shutter.
 
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@emeraldcity_grain Did you acquire that whole list in one single sale? That's quite a line up.

There are a couple of $100 process lenses I've been watching. They seem to be in nice shape but are in focal lengths I don't really want/need. Still, a minimal cash outlay will at least let me see if I am willing to mess around with lens with no shutter.

Acquired in one lot.
 

lobitar

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Dont forget the East German Apo-Tessars. Some years ago I tested a 600mm A-T versus a dito Rodenstock Apo-Ronar (from abt 1960?) on 4x5". The Tessar won hands down. The Apo-Ronar was in the ordinary heavy weight brass mount; while the A-T was in their ordinary aluminum mount, very nice and handy. By the way the 600 mm isn't the ordinary Tessar design, but with an additional air-space betw. the two rear elements. Sorry cant give the weight, as I don't have it at hand now, just that it was a rather light and very high-quality lens. I think any large shutter size#5 could easily support the weight of this lens, if you can make an adaptor. I used a Sinar norma 4x5" with 2 tripods.
 
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MTGseattle

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I've seen a few examples of the 24" red dot artar mounted in Copal 3 shutters. Does that seem correct? I thought it was a bigger lens than a Copal 3 opening. I'm 99% sure the lenses aperture section gets removed to accomplish this.
 

SureShot

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I'm looking to use a lens or two from this series for enlargement and film scanning on a Polaroid MP4 and various 4x5 enlargers like the Beseler 45V-XL. Scanning initially with a mirrorless camera adapted to a sliding Graflok back and maybe a scanning back in the future (Betterlight/Raycan).

There are many variables I've yet to measure for but I wondered if anyone has ballpark ideas of which lenses in this series are suited to the task.

To recap, these lenses came in the following categories afaik:

Apo-Nikkor
Dialyte
Tessar

Nikkor-Q
Double Gauss

Nikkor WA
Plasmat

@DREW WILEY You mentioned testing at least one against other LF lenses. I'm curious how you compared them and the results.
 
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DREW WILEY

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The better and more expensive line of Nikon process lenses were the symmetrical 4-element dialyte type. I have a set of those. But they also offered less expensive process lens options, including wider angle for sake of small "stat cameras". Nikkor Q implies a tessar. I've only tested the dialyte category I actually have, which were the predominant lens choice in high-end print shops here on the W Coast, and preferred by certain big photo labs too for enlarging purposes.

In terms of potential camera applications, I mounted some of these on Sinar lensboard to make comparisons with my regular view camera lenses of comparable focal length. Since I own some especially good regular lenses from series like Fujinon A, Schneider G-Claron, Kern Dagor, and Nikkor M. The Nikon dialyte lenses were superior to all of them in terms of sharpness, apochromaticity, and extreme range of near to far usage. The downside is the lack of built-in shutter, smaller image circle than my plasmats (GC, Fuji A, misc general purpsose plasmats) or my Fuji C lenses, and a rather annoying double-lined out of focus rendering (bokeh) if that kind of photography were in mind.

Since I use several of these - the 240/9 and 305/9 quite a bit in the darkroom, it's easy to compare the results there to my regular enlarging lenses, including the excellent Apo Rodagon N's. There too, the Apo Nikkors excel.

Note that the shortest Apo Nikkor which exists is the 180/9 - hard to find, but they do sometimes turn up. Shorter than that, then they made the 105/5.6 Apo El Nikkor, no doubt far over your budget and possibly too heavy for your Beseler lens mount to reliably support. It would be ridiculous overkill for the projects you have in mind, Sureshot. For awhile, Apo El Nikkors were sought out for high end scanning back applications, like repro-worthy copying of paintings. But the preferred equipment has since changed and become more specialized overall.
 
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...Note that the shortest Apo Nikkor which exists is the 180/9 - hard to find, but they do sometimes turn up...

I have one of those 180s. However, there was also a 150. This listing would drive me away, but it at least contains photographs of the 150:

 

DREW WILEY

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The Nikon literature lists the 150/8 as a wide angle plasmat, and indeed also shows the different 150/9 dialyte design. I have never personally seen or heard of either. But what strange things turn up in pawn shops!
 

SureShot

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The better and more expensive line of Nikon process lenses were the symmetrical 4-element dialyte type. I have a set of those. But they also offered less expensive process lens options, including wider angle for sake of small "stat cameras". Nikkor Q implies a tessar. I've only tested the dialyte category I actually have, which were the predominant lens choice in high-end print shops here on the W Coast, and preferred by certain big photo labs too for enlarging purposes.

In terms of potential camera applications, I mounted some of these on Sinar lensboard to make comparisons with my regular view camera lenses of comparable focal length. Since I own some especially good regular lenses from series like Fujinon A, Schneider G-Claron, Kern Dagor, and Nikkor M. The Nikon dialyte lenses were superior to all of them in terms of sharpness, apochromaticity, and extreme range of near to far usage. The downside is the lack of built-in shutter, smaller image circle than my plasmats (GC, Fuji A, misc general purpsose plasmats) or my Fuji C lenses, and a rather annoying double-lined out of focus rendering (bokeh) if that kind of photography were in mind.

Since I use several of these - the 240/9 and 305/9 quite a bit in the darkroom, it's easy to compare the results there to my regular enlarging lenses, including the excellent Apo Rodagon N's. There too, the Apo Nikkors excel.

Note that the shortest Apo Nikkor which exists is the 180/9 - hard to find, but they do sometimes turn up. Shorter than that, then they made the 105/5.6 Apo El Nikkor, no doubt far over your budget and possibly too heavy for your Beseler lens mount to reliably support. It would be ridiculous overkill for the projects you have in mind, Sureshot. For awhile, Apo El Nikkors were sought out for high end scanning back applications, like repro-worthy copying of paintings. But the preferred equipment has since changed and become more specialized overall.

Beating an Apo Rodagon is really exciting news to me! I can't wait to try one of these.

I wish Robert O'Toole of www.closeuphotography.com had gotten around to testing these. It's to him that I owe reaching this depth of the process lens rabbit hole. His reviews were so helpful in my research for adaptable glass for scanning and even led me to my excellent copy stand through his post on the Tominon lenses it came with. It sounds like he would have been blown away by these Nikkors. May he rest in peace.

If I were to get only one for dual purpose the 240/9 sounds like a fit and seems common. I will stick to the dialytes for their performance as you suggest. This really seems like the perfect spot between my budget on one end and ultimate performance like a Printing-Nikkor on the other.

Pairing one of these with a linescan camera of some kind to maximize resolution and ditch interpolation would be a dream but it looks like our initial setup will be a mirrorless adapted to the MP4 camera's Graflok.

I want to meet or exceed the quality of the dinosaur dedicated film scanners and one of these will get me a long way there. I'm keeping an eye out for a deal on one of the dialytes.
 
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MTGseattle

MTGseattle

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Epilogue;

I ended up with a Goerz 24" L.D. Artar and mounted it in front of a Packard #6 shutter. I still haven't gone out and exposed any film with it, But I think all-in I ended up with the focal length I was interested in with a shutter for right around $700 total and some weekend time.
 
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