APO Germinars & Germinar-Ws - Any Interest

Guillaume Zuili said:

I have for years an Apo-Germinar W 240 in Copal 3. I use it for 8x10 with a lot of coverage.
I can only say that these lenses are outstanding.

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Just a short note, that the Apo-Germinar W Guillaume mentions is different from the Germinar-W's or the Apo-Germinars Kerry is talking about. The 240mm Germinar W fits a Copal 1 shutter, as stated by Kerry, whereas the Apo-Germinar W is MUCH larger and heavier and comes in a size 3 shutter. All of them are great lenses, but with different designs and design goals.

Thank you Kerry, Brad.
Brad, I know how to calculate this , but albeit Shen-Hao spec mentions the max. draw of 360mm, it can only be achieved in particular sutuation by twisting the front out of its frame and tilting it up. In fact, I have never tried it yet, but without it, I believe the bellows can reach 300-330mm, so 300mm lens apparently will work up to some close range, probably close to what you mentioned and Kerry confirms it (as he tried with Nikon 300mm).
Kerry, regarding the shutters, I would have to acquire new shutter also, not only the scale. Also, I'll have SK Grimes to fix the scale on the shutter. So in my case, the total (lens + shutter and necessary work) may easily reach 600$...

Alexz said:

Kerry, regarding the shutters, I would have to acquire new shutter also, not only the scale. Also, I'll have SK Grimes to fix the scale on the shutter. So in my case, the total (lens + shutter and necessary work) may easily reach 600$...

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Alex,

I believe the $300 price for a new Copal No. 1 shutter from SK Grimes includes the engraved aperture scales (please call to confirm if you are interested). I also believe the last time I sold these a group of APUG buyers negotiated a bulk purchase discount on shutters/scales for the 240mm Germinar-W. I don't recall the details, but I think the discount was on the order of 5% or so. Perhaps someone who participated can confirm.

The 240mm and 300mm cells screw right into any standard No. 1 shutter. So, no additional work is necassary. In fact, as the folks at SK Grimes already have the necessary data, you wouldn't even need to send them the lenses. Just call them and tell them which lens you have and ask them to send you a new shutter with the proper scales. Even without any discount, you're looking at around $550 + shipping for the 240 and about $525 + shipping for the 300 - both with brand new Copal shutters and proper scales.

Kerry

kthalmann said:

I'd also like to call on the collective wisdom of the APUG membership regarding the coverage of the 600mm and 750mm APO Germinars. Thanks to Arne and his articles on these lenses I know what the official specs are. I know that based on these specs the 600mm will cover 7x17 with some left over for movements, but just miss the corners of 8x20 and that the 750mm should cover 12x20 with about an inch or so left over for front rise/shift. However, it has been my experience with other lenses originally targeted at the demanding reprographics industry (APO Artars, APO Ronars, G Clarons, etc.) that the official specs are often very conservative. Those using these lenses for pictorial use (usually involving some type of contact printing) often find they cover considerably more than the official spec would indicate.

So, if anyone has any first hand knowledge of the actual usable coverage of the 600mm and 750mm APO Germinars, please share your experiences here. I don't want to oversell the capbilities of these lenses, but I also don't want any 8x20 or 12x20 users to pass on them due to overly conservative manufacturers specs.

Thanks,
Kerry

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Kerry, in addition to the official 46° coverage specs (calculates to 510mm diameter for the 600mm lens, 636mm for the 750mm lens, and 850mm for the 1000mm lens, all at infinity) there are the mysterious "infinity" circles published in a single typed page by Docter: 585mm for the 600mm lens (52°), 715mm for the 750mm lens (51°), 895mm for the 1000mm one (48°) - this is supposedly all for the barrel versions wide open (!) at f/9. Stopped down, the coverage increases a little further to values up to 57°.

Disclaimer: I have not tested these values, these are values from an old Docter leaflet.

I was really satisfied with the 240 Germinar W so I'm now interesting in Apo-Germinar 600 if it will be possible to mount it in front of a old Compound n.5.
The barrell seems so heavy and bulk Kerry have you the mesurements of the rear screw? It will help to check if the Germinar could be usefull.
Thnaks.
Daniele

Re: APO Germinars etc.

I would be interested in a 750 Germinar, or a little less so for the 600.

Frankly, since practically no long lenses for large format are presently being manufactured now-a-days, I can see the values of all of them rising over time. I believe they are good investment. There willl always be plenty of hobbyists interested in the larger formats and even that interest appears to be growing.

acroell said:

Kerry, in addition to the official 46° coverage specs (calculates to 510mm diameter for the 600mm lens, 636mm for the 750mm lens, and 850mm for the 1000mm lens, all at infinity) there are the mysterious "infinity" circles published in a single typed page by Docter: 585mm for the 600mm lens (52°), 715mm for the 750mm lens (51°), 895mm for the 1000mm one (48°) - this is supposedly all for the barrel versions wide open (!) at f/9. Stopped down, the coverage increases a little further to values up to 57°.

Disclaimer: I have not tested these values, these are values from an old Docter leaflet.

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Arne,

Thanks for providing this additional information. I was not aware of the published infinity coverage specs for the longer APO Germinars. These numbers, if accurate, would indicate that:

The 600mm APO Germinar can cover 8x20 with some left over for movements and just hit the corners of 12x20 wide open.

The 750mm APO Germinar can cover 16x20 with movements wide open.

Even with the most conservative specs (46 degree coverage) the 1000mm APO Germinar can cover in excess of 20x24 wide open at infinity.

If the 57 degree number for coverage "stopped down" is realistic, that would yield image circle of 651mm, 814mm and 1085mm for the three lenses. This theoretical data would certainly indicate that these lenses are capable of covering very large formats for general pictorial use.

Additional Disclaimer: Again, as Arne stated above, these calculated image circle values are based on the coverage specs published by Docter Optics and have not been verified by me experimentally.

However, this data is also consistent with the limited feedback I have received directly from users who have actually checked the coverage of these lenses. One user reported that with even with maximum combined front rise and shift on his 12x20 Phillips he could not exceed the coverage of the 750mm APO Germinar. Another report indicated an image circle in excess of 600mm with no mechanical vignetting (at which point his camera ran out of movements) for the 600mm APO Germinar.

So, the only remaining questions are just how far do you need to stop down to get the full 57 degree coverage and what is the optical performance at the outer most edges of the image circle. At some point this becomes entirely academic as most people shooting such large formats are used to stopping down quite far for depth of field issues and most likely contact printing.

Kerry

Bob Eskridge said:

Frankly, since practically no long lenses for large format are presently being manufactured now-a-days, I can see the values of all of them rising over time. I believe they are good investment. There willl always be plenty of hobbyists interested in the larger formats and even that interest appears to be growing.

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To the best of my knowledge, the only non-telephoto large format lenses longer than 480mm being made today are the 600mm Fujinon C and the 550mm and 1100mm Schneider Fine Art XXL lenses. This is actually an increase over what was available a couple years ago when all the longer process lenses had been discontinued and prior to the introduction of the Fine Art XXL series. There are longer telephotos available, but they have much narrower coverage angles than non-telephotos of the same focal lengths.

It is still possible to find longer lenses, particularly longer Red Dot Artars and APO Ronars, on the used market, but they don't seem to show up on eBay as frequently as they did five years ago when all these lenses were being dumped on eBay due to the transition of the reprographics industry to digital reproduction.

Even shorter lenses covering the ULF formats will continue to be harder to get. Samples of the 355mm G Claron and 450mm Nikkor M still seem to be plentiful and reasonably priced on the used market, but both are out of production. So, there is a fixed supply that will continue to re-circlulate as people enter and exit the ULF market.

Kerry

Kerry, you can find these numbers on page 51 of my Docter article as part of the text, not in the tables. The basis for these numbers is a photocopy of a hand-typed sheet that came from Docter with some other Docter information, and that is why I put some caveats in the text there. They have never shown up in any other Docter literature. The statement that the numbers are for wide open lenses is my deduction since that list shows higher values for the shuttered versions, where the size 3 shutter limits the open aperture to a smaller value. The 57° is for the 600mm at f/11.5 (650mm), it is 56° for the 750mm at f/14.5 (795mm), and 53° for the 1000mm at f/19.5 (995mm circle). I would take them with a grain of salt, as the same table lists 61° for the smaller focal length (240-450mm), which is quite high for an Artar type.

Arne

Arne,

Thanks for the clarification. I was only looking at the values in the table when I made my post. So, the actual coverage probably lies somewhere between the conservative 46 degree spec and the perhaps "best case" 57 degrees. The 57 degree number may represent the maximum circle of illumination. How much of that is usable is subjective.

As I know of nobody currently shooting with anything larger than 20x24, there is little point in quibbling over the coverage of the 1000mm APO Germinar. It doesn't really matter if it covers 46 degrees, 48 degrees or 53 degrees, the true coverage can be summed up in one word: "enough".

For the 750mm, even if we are fairly conservative, it should cover 16x20 with quite a bit to spare. The real question with the 750 then becomes, can it cover 20x24. It sounds like it's real close and will depend on how far it is stopped down, and what the performance is near the limits of it's coverage.

The 600mm should be usable on formats up to 8x20 and likely 12x20 at typical working apertures. Like the 750mm on 20x24, the 600mm could possibly be usable on 16x20, but again you are approaching the very limits of its coverage at that point.

Of course, all this discussion assumes the lens is focused at infinity. For subjects closer than infinity, coverage increases substantially. Due to the very long focal lengths of these lenses, many users may be technically shooting "close-ups" without even realizing it.

While the 61 degree spec may seem quite high for an Artar type lens, Fuji lists the coverage of their 300mm f8.5 C as 66 degrees. They are a bit more conservative with the 450mm (57 degrees) and 600mm (55 degree) C series lenses. These are also 4 element air-spaced designs based on the classic Celor/Artar design.

Kerry

Kerry- I would be interested in either the 600mm or 750mm, price dependent of course. I'm looking at building my own 12x20 portrait camera and that about fits the bill.

kthalmann said:

Arne,
<snip>

As I know of nobody currently shooting with anything larger than 20x24, there is little point in quibbling over the coverage of the 1000mm APO Germinar. It doesn't really matter if it covers 46 degrees, 48 degrees or 53 degrees, the true coverage can be summed up in one word: "enough".

For the 750mm, even if we are fairly conservative, it should cover 16x20 with quite a bit to spare. The real question with the 750 then becomes, can it cover 20x24. It sounds like it's real close and will depend on how far it is stopped down, and what the performance is near the limits of it's coverage.

<snip>

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Hi,
I am interested in 750 or perhaps the 1000 depending on price. Do you know the diameter of the flange? Does it fit within the dimensions of a Sinar size board? Thanks.
Celac.

TheFlyingCamera said:

Kerry- I would be interested in either the 600mm or 750mm, price dependent of course. I'm looking at building my own 12x20 portrait camera and that about fits the bill.

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I should have pricing info on the longer lenses in the next day or two.

Kerry

pelerin said:

Hi,
I am interested in 750 or perhaps the 1000 depending on price. Do you know the diameter of the flange? Does it fit within the dimensions of a Sinar size board? Thanks.
Celac.

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Celac,

Here is the info on the mounting thread diameters for the longer lenses:

600mm = 90mm rear thread diameter
750mm = 110mm rear thread diameter
1000mm = 110mm rear thread diameter

All three lenses will fit on standard Sinar boards and mounting flange rings will be included in price of the lenses.

Kerry

kthalmann said:

Earlier this year, I sold several (there was a url link here which no longer exists), (there was a url link here which no longer exists) and (there was a url link here which no longer exists) lenses here on APUG..........

So, if you're interested, let me know. I'll tally the response over the next week or so and make a decision.

Thanks,
Kerry

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I would be interested in the Germinar lenses probably in the 150-240 range as well as the 600 assuming it can be mounted in a shutter.

Thanks.

Sincerely,

Hany.

kthalmann said:

Arne,

While the 61 degree spec may seem quite high for an Artar type lens, Fuji lists the coverage of their 300mm f8.5 C as 66 degrees. They are a bit more conservative with the 450mm (57 degrees) and 600mm (55 degree) C series lenses. These are also 4 element air-spaced designs based on the classic Celor/Artar design.

Kerry

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Kerry, you are right. I did a fast check with my 300mm Apo-Germinar on the groundglass. The maximum I can check on my TK45 is a direct shift of 103 mm,which would result in an image circle of about 350mm or close to 60°. At f/22 there is no mechanical vignetting at all, which means that the circle of illumination is certainly somewhat bigger than even this value.

I'd potentially be interested in a 1000mm depending on price.

kthalmann said:

Celac,

Here is the info on the mounting thread diameters for the longer lenses:

600mm = 90mm rear thread diameter
750mm = 110mm rear thread diameter
1000mm = 110mm rear thread diameter

All three lenses will fit on standard Sinar boards and mounting flange rings will be included in price of the lenses.

Kerry

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I have received additional information concerning mounting the 750mm and 1000mm APO Germinars (110mm rear thread diameter) on Sinar boards.

One or two minor modifications may be required. Neither modification requires any precision machine work, nor do they alter the actual lens in any way.

First, the outer diameter of the mounting flange is slightly larger than the Sinar lens boards. The actual outer diameter of the 110mm threaded flanges is about 142 - 143mm (the Sinar Boards are 140mm x 140mm). Depending on your camera's front standard design, it may require filing away a few millimeters from the outside of the mounting flange - not the entire flange, but just creating flat spots at the extreme outer diameter. Even after this modification is performed, it should still be possible to mount the flange securely to the Sinar board.

Second, if you plan to use these lenses with the Sinar behind-the-lens Copal shutter, a spacer ring will be required between the lens board and lens mount to prevent the rear lens barrel from protruding behind the board and interfering with the operation of the shutter. Again, this spacer ring would only be required if you intend to use these lenses with the Sinar behind-the-lens shutter.

As far as mounting these longer (600mm, 750mm and 1000mm) APO Germinars in shutters, the best, most cost effective solution would be to use either a behind-the-lens shutter (such as the Sinar or a Packard), or to use a front mounted shutter (like a LUC or front mounted Packard). Unlike many shorter, smaller process lenses, mounting these large APO Germinars in a shutter is not a "slam dunk". While it may technically possible to mount them in a Copal No. 3 shutter or a large Ilex or Compund shutter, it requires a lot of very precise machine work (which will be very costly) and also has two other drawbacks. Mounting in the shutter, will restrict the maximum apertue. For example, the 1000mm APO Germinar has a maximum aperture of f12 in it's original barrel. When placed in a Copal No. 3 shutter, the maximum aperture becomes nearly f20 - which results in a very dim ground glass. Also, the smaller throat size of the shutter will likely cause mechanical vignetting which could significantly reduce the size of the usable image circle. I just want anyone considering buying one of these longer lenses to know of these potential obstacles up front and to weigh the options before committing to purchase one of these lenses.

For a fine example of a 750mm APO Germinar with a front mounted Packard shutter, please see the SK Grimes web site. I believe, but am not 100% certain, that it is a Sinar lens board shown in that photo.

Kerry

It's a Go! - OK, there has been sufficient interest that I have decided to proceed - more details below.

Lens Prices: Since several people have asked about pricing information, I will post that first. The prices for the 150mm f9 Germinar-W in barrel, 240mm f9 Germinar-W in barrel with polarizer and lens shade and 300mm f9 APO Germinar cell sets will remain unchanged. Please refer to the links in my original post for the details on what is included with each lens. The special prices for APUG subscribers will remain:

150mm f9 Germinar-W in barrel - $200 + shipping and insurance
240mm f9 Germinar-W in barrel with lens shade and polarizer - $250 + shipping and insurance
300mm f9 APO Germinar-W matched cell sets - $200 + shipping and insurance

We have also established prices for the longer APO Germinar lenses. Prices for APUG subscribers will be:

600mm f9 APO Germinar in barrel - $390 + shipping and insurance
750mm f9 APO Germinar in barrel - $490 + shipping and insurance
1000mm f12 APO Germinar in barrel - $690 + shipping and insurance

I will also have a small number of 210mm f4.5 Docter Tessars in Copal No. 3 shutters for sale at $300 each + shipping and insurance. Unfortunately, these lenses do not have aperture scales engraved on the shutters. You will either have to make your own aperture scales or pay someone like SK Grimes to do so for you. We priced these low enough that you are basically buying a nice new Copal No. 3 shutter at a very attractive price and getting a lens thrown in for free.

To round out the offereings, I will also have a very small number of new-old-stock barrel mounted 270mm and 305mm G Clarons for sale. These are fairly late, unused G Clarons that fit right into standard No. 1 shutters. They will be priced at:

270mm f9 G Claron in barrel - $250 + shipping and insurance
305mm f9 G Claron in barrel - $290 + shipping and insurance

Details - Keep in mind that ALL of these lenses are to be considered "new-old-stock". What that means is they were made at sometime in the past, but have never been used. All are guaranteed to be free from defects and I will offer a 100% 14 day money back guarantee on all lenses sold. Of course, a 3% donation will be made to APUG for all lenses sold through APUG to APUG subscribers. I believe in supporting his valuable resource, so I only offer the prices above to APUG subscribers. If you're not already an APUG subscriber, buy yourself a subscription as a holiday gift that lasts the whole year long.

At this time, I am not taking any deposits or creating any waiting lists for these lenses. The prices for APUG members are fixed. No bidding wars will be allowed and all bribes declined. If I do end up offering any lenses for sale on eBay, as in the past, the prices on eBay will be higher than those offered here. I'd rather see APUG get 3% of every lenses sold than pay eBay listing and final value fees. I'd also like to see as many lenses as possible end up in the hands of members of the APUG community. Payment by PayPal only please. If you're not already a PayPal member, and plan to buy one of these lenses, please sign up now so there won't be any delays at the time of purchase.

Shipping - For the smaller lenses, the shipping fees charged will be the actual costs to ship Insured USPS Priority Mail to US residents and Insured Global EMS for international buyers. For these small lenses, I do not charge any fees for packing materials. I use free boxes from the Postal Service and save and re-use all packing materials I receive (bubble wrap, foam packing peanuts, etc.). For the heavier lenses (600mm, 750mm and 1000mm), I may charge a nominal additional fee (a couple bucks, perhaps) for additional packing materials. If so, this will be clearly stated when they are listed for sale. These lenses are quite heavy and may require larger, sturdier boxes than provided by the Postal Service. They will also likely require additional packing materials. My personal supply of bubble wrap and foam peanuts is finite and will likely be exhausted after the holidays and shipping all the smaller lenses. My experience with heavy lenses is that they can be easily damaged if they are not packed properly. I believe it is better to be safe then sorry with these rare, heavy lenses. So, if I need to purchase additional boxes and packing materials to safely ship these lenses, I will have to pass the cost of those materials onto the buyers. Again, this will be spelled out in detail when I list them for sale. Hopefully, most people won't mind paying a couple extra dollars to make sure their beautiful new lenses are well protected during shipping.

Limited Quantities - I believe there will be enough of the 150mm Germinar-Ws, 240mm Germinar-Ws and 300mm APO Germinars for all APUG members who have expressed an interest. That doesn't mean there is an infinite supply, just that I don't expect to sell out within a week of posting them for sale. The longer APO Germinars are another story. They will be in extremely short supply - especially the 600mm and 1000mm. Based on the response I have received, I expect these two to sell out almost instaneously. As I will be getting a few more of the 750mm APO Germinars, I expect them to last a bit longer, but they will also likely sell out in a few days time. The G Clarons will also be very limited in number and will probably sell out quickly.

Once I have the lenses in my possession and am ready to start selling them, I will post them for sale in the classifieds section of APUG. They may arrive before the Christmas holiday, but as I have other holiday commitments and no intention of fighting the lines at the Post Office, I will not offer them for sale until after the 25th. The exact date and time will depend on when they arrive and how busy I am with other obligations. Other than to say that it will be sometime on, or after the morning of December 26th, I will give no advance warning of when the lenses will be listed on APUG. As many of the lenses are available in very limited quantities, I want to make this as fair as possible. They will be sold strickly on a first come, first served basis.

If you have any more questions about the lenses, I advise asking them as soon as possible. If you wait until the lenses are offered for sale, they may be sold out before I get a chance to answer your questions.

Thank You - Thanks to all who have responded here and in private. I especially appreciate the input from people who have first hand knowledge of these lenses. It's too bad that they are no longer made and available in such limited quantities. I hope most of these lenses will end up in the hands of APUG members and will be used to creat many beautiful, traditional photographs.

Kerry

Flange Ring PDF - I have uploaded a PDF containing a life size image of the 110mm mounting flange. This is the mounting flange used for both the 750mm and 1000mm APO Germinar lenses.

If you print this file out with no scaling (100%), it can be used a rough guide to check fit on your lens board and determine what, if any, modifications may be required. Please just use this as a guide. Do not use this image to actually cut any holes in your lens board. If you plan to buy one of these lenses, please wait until you have the actual flange mounting ring in-hand before attempting any modification to your lens board. Although we tried to maintain 100% scaling throughout the process, there might be some slight differences in size between the image and the actual flange ring. Again, use it as a rough guide only to gage approximate fit. Note, there is also some shadowing on the image, particularly near the top, that may make it appear a bit larger than it actually is.

Kerry

Just a quick update on the status the Germinar lenses. The lenses have been shipped from Germany, but they have not yet arrived. Due to the heavy shipping volume this time of year, they might not arrive until after Christmas. If they get here in time, I will still try to post the listings in the classified section on the 26th. If they arrive later, I will post them as soon as possible - definitely before the first of the year.

I will be getting the following lenses:

150mm f9 Germinar-W

240mm f9 Germinar-W

300mm f9 APO Germinar Cell Sets

210mm f4.5 Tessar in Copal No. 3

600mm f9 APO Germinar

750mm f9 APO Germinar

1000mm f12 APO Germinar

I will also receive a very limited quantity of unused 270mm f9 and 305mm f9 barrel mounted G Clarons.

Once the lenses arrive, I will post better photos of the longer APO Germinars. In the mean time, click on the links above for pictures and more information on these lenses.

Other than the 210mm Tessars, none of the lenses come with shutters. The 150mm, 240mm and 300mm Germinars, along with the 270mm and 305mm G Clarons are direct fit into standard Copal/Compur shutters (see the links for more details). The longer APO Germinars are not well suited to mounting in standard shutters. A Packard, or similar, shutter would be the best approach to using the 600mm, 750mm and 1000mm lenses with a shutter. I cannot supply shutters. You will have to track those down on your own.

If you have any questions, please try to ask them in advance. Some of the lenses will sell out very quickly and I won't have time to answer questions before they sell. They will all be sold on a first come, first served basis.

Kerry

Kerry

do you have weights for the long lenses?.........my main interest is the 1000.


Clayton

claytume said:

Kerry

do you have weights for the long lenses?.........my main interest is the 1000.


Clayton

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Clayton,

The longer (600mm, 750mm and 1000mm) APO Germinars are VERY heavy and bulky. Definitely not for those who like to backpack (of course, I don't know anybody who backpacks with a 20x24, so weight might not be an issue for those considering these lenses). The "official" weights listed in Arne Croell's table are 2350g for the 600mm, 3900g for the 750mm and 4500g for the 1000mm. Those weights might be a bit higher than the actual weights of the lenses. I have been informed that the acual weight of the 600mm is 1880g. So, the 750 and 1000 might also be lighter than specified, but still not to be consider lightweight. Once I have the lenses in my possession, I'll weight them and post the actual weights.

Kerry

Kerry; I have one of your 240's. What a great lens. I'm one of the weird ones interested in the 210. Do you know the filter size?

Kerry,
I'm interested in one of the 270 G-Clarons.