Anyone using a Heiland TAS to develop 4x5 chromes?

[Michael Mutmansky]

Folks,

I am looking into some new color work over the next few years and I thought I'd try to understand what my options are for developing 4x5 chromes... and it doesn't look like there is anyone in my area doing that, so I'd need to send it out or do it myself. OK fine, but I got rid of my Jobo and expert drums a long time ago, so I need to see what my options are with what I have at hand.

I do have a Heiland TAS film processor that I use with Jobo 1500 tanks for 120 B&W processing at the moment. It's great for this and I'm pleased with the results I'm getting.

The 1500 tanks don't do 4x5, but the 2500 tanks will, so I could get one of those and the insert and use it for B&W and color developing possibly, but I want to understand the shortcomings of this approach... the 2500 tanks are useable on the TAS.

As I think about it, the largest concern is probably the amount of chemicals that it will take to develop film. I'd probably need to think about shifting to a replenishment approach rather than single-use just to keep the costs down on developer for B&W. Similarly, I presume there are similar issues when developing for chromes, although it's been a long, long time since I did any color developing since I always had a lab available for that in the past.

A second concern might be the amount of time it takes to fill the tank with developer... causing uneven developemt from top to bottom.

Is this a fool's errand or can I get something up and running using the Heiand TAS, and a sous vide tank for temperature control and E6 chemicals?

Knowledgeable advice and/or recommendations are appreciated.

One note on the Heiland, it is possible to effectively make it operate in continuous agitation so that the developer and film is always getting turned over and the film should be getting solid, even coverage throughout, but it is not possible to fill the tanks while the agitation is happening, so I think it means there is no way to not be using a full fill of the tank to ensure there aren't uneven fill marks on the film from the time it takes to add the developer to the tank... but not sure if that is correct.

 

[mshchem]

You need absolute precise temperature control for the 1st developer.

MHOFWIW

 

[koraks]

it is possible to effectively make it operate in continuous agitation so that the developer and film is always getting turned over and the film should be getting solid, even coverage throughout, but it is not possible to fill the tanks while the agitation is happening, so I think it means there is no way to not be using a full fill of the tank to ensure there aren't uneven fill marks on the film from the time it takes to add the developer to the tank

OK, but provided that the TAS will be able to start agitation cycles immediately after mounting the tank onto the machine, it's not all that different from using something like a Jobo without a lift or filling implement where you manually fill the tank before mounting it onto the machine. This works OK in practice.

The main issue I'd be worried about is the problem of surge marks along the edges of the sheets that you may or may not get with the 2509N reels. Please do use the 'N' reel (with the additional 'flaps') as the original 2509 is very liable to producing surge marks. You may or may not want to use a pre-wash depending on the results you get.

Temperature control may be challenging as @mshchem implies since you don't have a water jacket etc. to keep the tank warm during processing. "Fly-by" temperature control may be good enough; fill at a higher temperature than the target to allow for some cool-down during development, making the temperature average out around the target value.

 

[mshchem]

You need to build a " glove box " that's temperature controlled. I've always wondered about something like this. Given a bit of planning this would work for anything. Something that would maintain temperature anywhere from 68 to 104° F.

 

[Michael Mutmansky]

Yes, temperature control is very important and this is one of the reasons I was wondering if it is foolish to be thinking about it when using a processor that doesn't allow you to have a water bath to ensure consistent temperature control.

I'm very particular about my results and this would certainly be a reason to be thinking there might be an issue. No point in doing something if it is impossible to do it right with a particular method.

One other thing about the Heiland is that there are so many solution changes that are important with color (whereas there really only is one that is terribly time-critical in B&W) and the fact that it isn't possible to be absolutely consistent with the process makes me wonder about consistency, again.

 

[koraks]

Yes, temperature control is very important

To the extent that you can see the difference if you have slight variations in the process. Since quite a lot of people have done manual E6 processing with satisfactory results, I wouldn't worry too much about it. Maybe start with a few rolls of 35mm, snip them into 4 lengths each and run some consistency tests with your setup. See how that goes.

One other thing about the Heiland is that there are so many solution changes that are important with color

Only the first developer is really critical though. It's not so bad.

 

[Michael Mutmansky]

WTH... Fujifilm still isn't delivering chrome films in the US? I'd seen that this had been going on, but I thought it was an aftereffect of COVID just like their problems delivering digital cameras...

Has anyone seen anything about this in any official capacity? I'm still sad about Astia going away and it seems even Provia is essentially gone as well unless something changes. That leaves Ektachrome 100 as the only film available in LF sizes at the moment?

 

[mshchem]

WTH... Fujifilm still isn't delivering chrome films in the US? I'd seen that this had been going on, but I thought it was an aftereffect of COVID just like their problems delivering digital cameras...

Has anyone seen anything about this in any official capacity? I'm still sad about Astia going away and it seems even Provia is essentially gone as well unless something changes. That leaves Ektachrome 100 as the only film available in LF sizes at the moment?

I wonder if Fuji can coat all of the Fujichrome films required for 18 months of sales in an 8 hour shift??? They put the master rolls in coffins and slit and perf as they feel like it. Sheet film is even more rarified due to the base.

One of these days, like pack film it's going to go poof and be gone.

 

[Michael Mutmansky]

You need to build a " glove box " that's temperature controlled. I've always wondered about something like this. Given a bit of planning this would work for anything. Something that would maintain temperature anywhere from 68 to 104° F.

To the extent that you can see the difference if you have slight variations in the process. Since quite a lot of people have done manual E6 processing with satisfactory results, I wouldn't worry too much about it. Maybe start with a few rolls of 35mm, snip them into 4 lengths each and run some consistency tests with your setup. See how that goes.



Only the first developer is really critical though. It's not so bad.

Thanks for the comments Koraks and mshchem, much appreciated.

As a thought experiment, suppose I were to get a 2500 tank and the 4x5 insert. I could develop it two different ways:

1. Do the first develop in a water bath to keep it tempered through that step, with appropriate inversions, etc. and then use the TAS for all the rest to make it easier to track the timing etc.
2. Do the first develop on the TAS as well but lose the water bath.

In both cases, I could temper the film with a few changes of pre-wash at a slightly higher temperature than the developer, and use a tempering bath for the solution bottles.

Does either approach feel like it would make a more consistent end result? Trade-offs with both, but which one feels like the winner?

 

[koraks]

I think you can get great results either way; I'd start with the method that appeals to you the most. If you settle on #2, do a test run with water instead of developer and no film, but at process temperature, to see what the temperature difference is between the water that goes in and when it goes out at the end of the development time. You can then use that delta-t to establish an appropriately higher starting temperature.

 

[Michael Mutmansky]

I wonder if Fuji can coat all of the Fujichrome films required for 18 months of sales in an 8 hour shift??? They put the master rolls in coffins and slit and perf as they feel like it. Sheet film is even more rarified due to the base.

One of these days, like pack film it's going to go poof and be gone.

I don't know, but there's probably so much built up demand that they could run them for a while and vendors will be selling out with people stocking up.

Maybe Fujifilm should start up the machines and make an announcement about them closing them down on XXX date and make it so people can stock up into the future. If I wanted to improve brand loyalty, that's how I'd do it, even if it wasn't the most profitable method.

Plus, put documentation online about how best to deep freeze the film... I wouldn't be happy about it, but I could buy 15-20 years worth of film and slam them into the freezer. I'd even be willing to consider buying a commercial/lab grade freezer that goes colder if that is warranted (but I doubt that is necessary). I think the key is humidity and being frozen, plus the 4 feet of lead, steel, and concrete thick crypt you put it into.

 

[Michael Mutmansky]

I think you can get great results either way; I'd start with the method that appeals to you the most. If you settle on #2, do a test run with water instead of developer and no film, but at process temperature, to see what the temperature difference is between the water that goes in and when it goes out at the end of the development time. You can then use that delta-t to establish an appropriately higher starting temperature.

Great approach, thanks.