Anyone in USA notice Glacial Acetic Acid difficult to obtain?

ic-racer · Aug 19, 2007

I'm getting low on glacial acetic acid stop bath and went to buy another gallon of the Kodak branded glacial acetic acid from my local photo store. They no longer cary it. So 'to the internet' to buy the product. Looks like B&H won't ship the product: "for in-store purchase only."

Looks like shipping the concentrate is going to be expensive. This negates the reason for wanting the concentrate in the first place: economy. :rolleyes:

Next thing to try is dilute acetic acid (which seems like it CAN be shipped at reasonable cost). Looks like all the products I could find have some 'indicator.' Tentenal, Ilford, Kodak 'non-glacial' products, Formulary, Clayton, etc.

So the question is: Does anyone know a brand of a dilute acetic acid (about 28% or less) with NO indicator?

I like my glacial acetic acid and I'm going to consider all comments about changing from acetic acid to be the equivalent to 'why don't you just go digital...'

I really don't want to muck around with non-acetic acid solutions without knowing the long-term effects on the prints or negatives (in relation to how a citric acid would affect ammonium thiosulfate fixer etc.)

BTW I searched the internet for bulk acetic acid chemical suppliers and most of the web sites were totally useless. For example Millenium/Lyondell website claims they are "a leading manufacturer and global supplier of acetic acid." Of course, there is no way to use their web site to actually OBTAIN the product:confused:

reub2000 · Aug 19, 2007

Just use white vinegar. That's what I use. I have no problem obtaining it.

jwsplatjw · Aug 19, 2007

Are you aware that Glacial Acetic acid is just concentrated "Vinigar"? In a pinch you can use white vinigar and it will have a concentration that varies from 5% to as high as 10% at the grocery store. I don't know if this helps but it is really cheap and certainly worth a try.

srs5694 · Aug 19, 2007

Try Photographer's Formulary, Digital Truth, or Art Craft. There are probably other suppliers, but these three specialize in photographic chemicals.

ic-racer · Aug 19, 2007

jwsplatjw said:
Are you aware that Glacial Acetic acid is just concentrated "Vinigar"? In a pinch you can use white vinigar and it will have a concentration that varies from 5% to as high as 10% at the grocery store. I don't know if this helps but it is really cheap and certainly worth a try.

I know that the 'food grade' vinigar that I love to put on french fries has acetic acid as the active ingredient but the amber pigments (weather real or 'added') are probably worse than the indicator used in the photo products

I don't do much shopping, but you are saying the "White Vinigar" is just a common name for dilute acetic acid, just like the drugstore "Rubbing Alcohol" is just a common name for isopropyl alcohol?

Yes, you have given me an idea. If I can convince myself that the "WHITE vinigar" has been thoroughly filtered (no sediment) then I can just buy a bunch of it and use it without diluting it.

My concern was the 'unknown' concentration of the grocery store product, but I thougth I could just get some litmus paper and test my current 'working strength' solution against the grocery store product. If it is close then I have a potential unlimited supply (though, my wife does the shopping, so I cannot say that it actually IS available at the local grocery).

bdial · Aug 19, 2007

White vinegar in gallon jugs is easily available at the grocery store and costs 2 or 3 USD or so. How it exactly compares to photo acetic acid, I don't know. I have used as stop bath on occasions when I've run out. We keep a gallon on hand pretty much all the time for de-mineralizing the coffee maker, among other things. I've never encountered any sort of sediment in it. It's also a good glass cleaner.

semeuse · Aug 19, 2007

Photographers Formulary lists glacial acetic acid on their web site under bulk chemicals.

Michael Kadillak · Aug 19, 2007

Glacial Acedic Acid

Look around and you will find all that you want as there are numerous alternatives. Contact your local high school science department and see who stocks their lab. Maybe the next time you are taking a trip to the big city you will need to stop by and stock up. I buy as much excess chemicals I can at one time to support the stores that are still in business locally and let them know that I am interested in continuing to purchase from them. Fixer, acedic acid, specialty chemicals and whatever else I need and I continue to keep a robust inventory. Greasing the wheels of commerce in an industry I want (and need) to succeed.

Ed Sukach · Aug 19, 2007

I've used white vinegar (5%) diluted 1:4 to make a 1% short stop for lo, these many moons (> 10 years) with NO problems at all. I'm not sure what is meant by "food grade" (pigments?) - there are other varieties, balsamic, taragon, cider, raspberry - etc., but white vinegar is the most common, and cheapest.

nworth · Aug 19, 2007

The Kodak brand package may not be available, but glacial acetic acid is quite readily available to just about anyone. As mentioned, Photographers' Formulary carries it as do most other mail order photo chemical outfits. The problem with getting it by mail order is that it requires hazardous substance packaging, handling, and shipping, which carries and extra fee. If there is a scientific or industrial chemical supply house nearby, you can get it much more cheaply from them. Firms that deal in dyes and supplies for dyers also usually carry it. It is so commonly used that there are no doubt other suppliers as well.

Robert Hall · Aug 19, 2007

Check with water treatment plants, swimming pool sales places, etc.

I can get it by the gallon up to 55 gallon drums here in Salt Lake, no problems.

photomc · Aug 19, 2007

You might look on e*ay as well, noticed there are a couple of place selling glacial - would emial the seller to see about any hazmat charges though.

The distilled vinegar in the states is normally 5% acetic acid if that helps (not the same as vinegar in the UK it seems).

Gary-M · Aug 19, 2007

I buy it at a local chemical supply house (Hills) in Phoenix. If you have a local chemical supply, it will probably also be cheaper than any place that is a "photographic" supply.

Gary

Roger Hicks · Aug 20, 2007

Tetenal's 60% acetic acid has no indicator in it -- that's what I use.

psvensson · Aug 20, 2007

I would avoid glacial acetic acid for safety reasons - the stuff will cause very severe burns on contact, and the fumes can be dangerous too. Anchell & Troop recommend against using it.

Arvee · Aug 20, 2007

Costco sells 5% white vinegar (pure acetic acid) 2-1 gallon jugs in a single package for about 4 bucks. Simply dilute 1:3 or 1:4 and it works just fine. Been doing this for years....

eclarke · Aug 20, 2007

My Brother in law was Director of Technical Servises at Ansco/GAF and white vinegar is what he used..EC

Roger Hicks · Aug 20, 2007

psvensson said:
I would avoid glacial acetic acid for safety reasons - the stuff will cause very severe burns on contact, and the fumes can be dangerous too. Anchell & Troop recommend against using it.

While I'd broadly agree, it is easy to overstate the dangers. I first handled glacial acetic at school 45 years ago at the age of 12 or so, and it really isn't as dangerous as most concentrated acids. A splash of glacial acetic on the hand can be washed off before it does any significant or even painful damage: we're not talking B-movie flesh dissolving acids here.

As for the vapour, obviously you don't want to snort the stuff, but in half-decent ventilation it's no problem and of course once it's diluted (AATW -- Always Add Acid To Water) it smells the same regardless of what the original strength was. The only reason I'm currently using 60% is that it is, at the moment, easier to get, and I'd cheerfully go back to glacial (which I used for many years) without worrying.

TheFlyingCamera · Aug 20, 2007

Roger Hicks said:
and of course once it's diluted (AATW -- Always Add Acid To Water)...

I learned that one in junior high school from our science teacher - she was from New England, so she taught us the New England mnemonic -

Do whatcha aughtah, add acid tah watah.

She also had a yellow lab named Ralph who would take naps in the corner of the classroom and fart- he always let off SBDs that would stink up the classroom and disrupt the lesson for the day. The humor factor of canine flatulence knows no bounds for a bunch of 13 year olds, even when they're the ones on the receiving end of it.

psvensson · Aug 20, 2007

Roger Hicks said:
While I'd broadly agree, it is easy to overstate the dangers. I first handled glacial acetic at school 45 years ago at the age of 12 or so, and it really isn't as dangerous as most concentrated acids. A splash of glacial acetic on the hand can be washed off before it does any significant or even painful damage: we're not talking B-movie flesh dissolving acids here.

That's good to know - from the warnings I'd read, I was under the impression that it was a flesh-dissolving type of deal because of its ability to coagulate proteins on contact.

DBP · Aug 20, 2007

Roger Hicks said:
While I'd broadly agree, it is easy to overstate the dangers. I first handled glacial acetic at school 45 years ago at the age of 12 or so, and it really isn't as dangerous as most concentrated acids. A splash of glacial acetic on the hand can be washed off before it does any significant or even painful damage: we're not talking B-movie flesh dissolving acids here.

As for the vapour, obviously you don't want to snort the stuff, but in half-decent ventilation it's no problem and of course once it's diluted (AATW -- Always Add Acid To Water) it smells the same regardless of what the original strength was. The only reason I'm currently using 60% is that it is, at the moment, easier to get, and I'd cheerfully go back to glacial (which I used for many years) without worrying.

By contrast, nitric will leave a nasty and painful yellow burn almost instantly.

Roger Hicks · Aug 20, 2007

psvensson said:
That's good to know - from the warnings I'd read, I was under the impression that it was a flesh-dissolving type of deal because of its ability to coagulate proteins on contact.

Well, it will if you give it long enough, but you would need to be of an unusually phlegmatic temperament to leave it there without washing it off, and you'd need to be a bit rash to be handling any concentrated acid without reasonably immediate access to generous quantities of running water. Bear in mind that skin is already a pretty well coagulated protein, though the stuff stings like hell on an open cut.

Put it this way: by way of a party trick, to demonstrate that it really wasn't all that dangerous, I'd be reasonably willing to pour a teaspoonfull of it onto the back of my hand provided I could wash it off immediately. From the last time I got glacial acetic on bare skin (decades ago) I'd expect a bit of redness and maybe some itching but nothing serious if it was washed off immediately. As far as I recall, it's a bit like caustic soda: your skin feels slippery for a few seconds before it actually starts to hurt.

Edit: and, to add to the previous post, I sure as hell wouldn't do that with conc. nitric or conc. sulphuric, and I'd be very hesitant with conc. hydrochloric.

ic-racer · Aug 20, 2007

Found some

I went to another local photography store and they actually had one gallon of the Kodak brand glacial acetic acid. Again, the main reason I want this stuff is what I think is economy. So, I decided to figure out how much this stuff costs per liter of working solution.

I'm showing the math so you can check this with me:

1 Gal. Glacial Acetic Acid = $35.00
1 Gal. US = 3785 ml

Dilute 3 to 8 for 28% stock solution = 13,626 ml = 13.6 liters

Dilute 48ml per liter for working solution = 283 liters

Divide by $35.00USD and get 0.12 USD per liter, or 12 cents per liter.

So, if you really need to add in another $35 for shipping the cost would still be reasonable at about a quarter per liter .

Of course the acetic acid in concentrated form can be a hazard but realize that a weak acid, even when concentrated, is still a weak acid (ie it does not like to give up its proton as much as hydrochloric acid).

For mixing the 28% solution I use ventilation and I also wear one of those respirator masks I use when spray painting or using solvents, and some 'lab goggles' to protect my eyes from the fumes, and gloves of course.

I actually have been burned more by potato chips than mixing stop bath. This is a TRUE story: I love those 'Salt and Vinegar' potato chips. Well they really just have some salt of acetic acid (sodium acetate) on them. Well, one day I got some of the Pringles brand chips in 'Salt and Vinegar' flavor. If you don't know the Pringles brand, they are almost synthetic potato chips, so I figured they are just laced with sodium acetate. This one can of chips was Soooooo good it made my eyes water. In fact I ate the whole can of chips. Well, someone goofed on the sodium acetate concentration and my lips burned for a day afterwards . I knew there was something wrong with the chips because my kids would not touch them. (I ate them anyway, they were good ) I have had these chips since then and they are nowhere near as strong as that one can.

In terms of a real health hazard, your own hydrochloric acid from the oxcintic cells of the stomach causes more death than acetic acid. (In developed countries the acid from the stomach is a carcinogen to the lower esophagus: it causes esophageal adenocarcinoma. In the USA, about 5,000 deaths/year from esophageal adenocarcinoma http://www.emedicine.com/med/topic741.htm)

Photo Engineer · Aug 20, 2007

Support your local photo store.

Kodak Glacial Acetic Acid #64-19-7.

I wonder if they still sell it. I got a gallon at my local store about 2 years ago.

PE

Paul Howell · Aug 20, 2007

Photo Engineer said:
Support your local photo store.

Kodak Glacial Acetic Acid #64-19-7.

I wonder if they still sell it. I got a gallon at my local store about 2 years ago.

I was told by my local shop that Kodak, (whoever bought the chemisty unit) will no longer make glacial acid, just indicator stop. True or false?

Anyone in USA notice Glacial Acetic Acid difficult to obtain?

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