Anybody buying Kodak B&W films nowadays?

[faberryman]

.....if you buy from B&H in New York.... TMax 100 in 35mm is $1 less a roll. Tmax 400 is $1.50 less a roll than the Ilford Delta products. Kodak is also cheaper in 120 than Delta.....at B&H
With free shipping, B&H has been my go-to for years because of their selection of enlarging paper. Even now with less choice.... it's still my go-to.

Yes, where you live matters. For the prices you quoted from a Canadian camera store near where you live, you can save some money by buying Ilford Delta over Kodak TMax. If you buy from B&H in New York, you can save a little by buying Kodak TMax over Ilford Delta.

I'm out.

 

[lamerko]

Would they be country-specific, those loopholes?
It's been a while since I've received anything that wasn't intercepted and charged in accordance with our local tax law. I just keep it in mind when ordering and then it's all fine by me (or not, in which I case I just don't place the order). I guess marking a box as 'gift' might sometimes work, although I have my doubts about that...

Btw, even with taxes & fees, it might be worthwhile to get a 400ft roll of something nice from frame24. Sure, it hurts a bit, but it takes a while to shoot through 400ft in a stills camera. At least it takes me a while.

Here in Bulgaria, we have for many years courier companies that deal with the transfer of luggage from certain destinations, charging per kilogram, pallet or specific goods (motorcycles, white goods, car parts). Pre-Brexit UK delivery was €1.50/kg. After Brexit, there was some uncertainty for a while, but they concluded some kind of agreement - they continued to work according to the same scheme, but with a slightly increased price (2.5 euros per kilogram). The fee is firm no matter what is being transported. They cross the border through a vehicle scale without making customs declarations for each and every item. Fast and cheap.
These couriers have warehouses on site - I order the goods to their warehouse and so I have no problems with orders. Of course I'm not avoiding tax - I pay VAT in the UK as it should be. However, I avoid double taxation. Maybe there are similar couriers in your country?

 

[Bronson Dugnutt]

My most recent purchases have been Double-X & Tri-X in 16mm for subminiature still and cine cameras (apart from Vision3). I've a got a few rolls of cold stored Tri-X & TMax in 120 and 35mm rolled from bulk before prices went bananas. I use the Kodak film when I have a particular project or process in mind, but opt for less expensive stocks for snapshots, regardless of the format.

 

[abruzzi]

yup. Jut shot 12 rolls of Tri-X 120 in various cities in Spain. I dropped to Acros for two rolls of all outdoor shots, and one roll of Delta 3200 inside a cathedral, but Tri-X was the swiss army knife. And here in the US its only a tiny bit more expensive than HP5 ($9/roll vs $8.50/roll)

 

[GregY]

Yes, where you live matters. For the prices you quoted from a Canadian camera store near where you live, you can save some money by buying Ilford Delta over Kodak TMax. If you buy from B&H in New York, you can save a little by buying Kodak TMax over Ilford Delta.

I'm out.

I'd buy Kodak for important work or trips...regardless. These days it matters somewhat less where you live. It costs me more in time and money to drive 3hrs round trip to buy film....than to order from B&H. The folks in Europe have access to Bergger paper.... here in N America less so.

 

[Two23]

I've stayed with FP4+ for years in 35mm, 120, 4x5, 5x7, and 8x10. I do buy Kodak HC-110 when I run low.


Kent in SD

 

[Paul Howell]

I've stayed with FP4+ for years in 35mm, 120, 4x5, 5x7, and 8x10. I do buy Kodak HC-110 when I run low.


Kent in SD

Depending on how Sino Promise ends up, you might need to buy the Legacy or Iiford version of HC 110, when my Kodak labeled version runs out will get Iiford.

 

[Marcelo Paniagua]

Bulk Kodak is not such a great saving like before.

You are correct. I dont do bulk due to económics reasons (at least on 35mm, bulk 120 is other story). Reason to do bulk is mostly related to convenience. Normally I do 24exp rolls but sometimes I like to do a 12 or 15 exp roll.

Over the years I found that I get more keepers and waste less film with shorter rolls
If I have a 36 exp on my camera, I found myself wasting film so I can develop one or two keepers. Thats what I love 120 film. Shorter rolls and less waste.

 

[Craig]

It costs me more in time and money to drive 3hrs round trip to buy film....than to order from B&H.

I'm fortunate that I'm about 10min drive from The Camera Store, and depending on exchange rates I have found their Ilford prices to be cheaper than B&H; or at least so close it's not worth my while to buy elsewhere. Or if I only need 2 rolls, I can buy it and not pay shipping. I'm happy to pay a bit more to buy locally, as they carry the liquid Ilford chemisty and that is much easier to buy locally than have shipped.

I like that if I run out of something I can zip down and get it and be back printing in 30min. If I order everything from out of country that option to buy close to home may not be there in the future.

 

[David R Williams]

I'm fortunate that I'm about 10min drive from The Camera Store, and depending on exchange rates I have found their Ilford prices to be cheaper than B&H; or at least so close it's not worth my while to buy elsewhere. Or if I only need 2 rolls, I can buy it and not pay shipping. I'm happy to pay a bit more to buy locally, as they carry the liquid Ilford chemisty and that is much easier to buy locally than have shipped.

I like that if I run out of something I can zip down and get it and be back printing in 30min. If I order everything from out of country that option to buy close to home may not be there in the future.

+1, but about 15 min drive.

 

[Craig]

+1, but about 15 min drive.

Depends on traffic! I couldn't do it in 10 min at 5 pm. Google tells me 12 min right now, I could probably do it in 11

 

[GregY]

+1, but about 15 min drive.

I've known Peter & Julian since their days at Camtech & Nova. Yes their prices on ilford products are very good. Through no fault of theirs, Kodak film prices are 1.8x the USA prices (at the current exchange rate), & for travel or big projects, I prefer Kodak films, so i buy that elsewhere.

 

[braxus]

When I buy film today, its from B&H for Kodak. Cheapest option for Canadians. That said I have 300-400 rolls of film in my film freezer, so when I buy now, its only a few rolls here and there to top things up. I dont buy bulk much more these days. I really need to use up what I already have.

 

[koraks]

Maybe there are similar couriers in your country?

I doubt it. They'd have to be OK with facilitating tax evasion and breaking European import tax law.

Of course I'm not avoiding tax - I pay VAT in the UK as it should be.

I understand you feel like you're doing nothing wrong, but I doubt it's in accordance with European tax law. This stipulates that VAT is paid in the country where the goods enter the EU, which in your case is Bulgaria. That you're also paying VAT in the UK does not change the fact that you should be paying VAT in Bulgaria as well.

Anyway, this is not to lecture you about making wrong decisions or anything. It's confusing material, it's annoying that we have to deal with these things as mere consumers and it's not like you're running some grand tax evasion scheme or anything And it's also a bit off-topic. I was just wondering if I had missed an obvious legal loophole, but it doesn't appear that way, so thanks for answering my question

 

[Agulliver]

Geographical locaiton probably plays a part. The price difference between Kodak and Ilford may be less in some parts of the world. I live pretty close to Kodak Alaris Hemel Hempstead HQ but I don't suppose that makes Kodak any cheaper than if I lived in Scotland. It's not like I'm hundreds of miles from Mobberly, either.

I bulk roll 35mm because I still save a bit with Ilford and Foma, while I can also roll 20 exposure rolls which I find work for my needs much of the time. For 120, honestly I use Fomapan 400 a lot of the time. In both cases, Kodak cannot compete on price and while the Kodak products are excellent....the Ilford are just as good and the Foma are good enough for my needs.

 

[lamerko]

I doubt it. They'd have to be OK with facilitating tax evasion and breaking European import tax law.


I understand you feel like you're doing nothing wrong, but I doubt it's in accordance with European tax law. This stipulates that VAT is paid in the country where the goods enter the EU, which in your case is Bulgaria. That you're also paying VAT in the UK does not change the fact that you should be paying VAT in Bulgaria as well.

Anyway, this is not to lecture you about making wrong decisions or anything. It's confusing material, it's annoying that we have to deal with these things as mere consumers and it's not like you're running some grand tax evasion scheme or anything And it's also a bit off-topic. I was just wondering if I had missed an obvious legal loophole, but it doesn't appear that way, so thanks for answering my question

It is not that simple. And with Brexit - completely... In principle, VAT is due in the country where the transaction is made or where the final destination of the goods is. Brexit has put up barriers but not removed all agreements. The commercial agreement with the UK is 2,500 pages long. One of the agreements is the avoidance of double taxation. In other words, you should not pay VAT in the UK and in an EU country at the same time on the same item. For this purpose, in such orders, one of the parties should not charge VAT. For example, if someone from the US orders something from the EU, they should not be charged VAT. However, the chaos of Brexit makes this difficult.
Especially for my case. There's nothing wrong - I'm transacting on UK territory. The merchant is registered there, the delivery address is also there. All local taxes are paid. From there on we have PERSONAL LUGGAGE delivery. This is not about trading abroad. This is the loophole. And there is no cheating - everything is regulated by both sides. Maybe it will change in the future, maybe not.
A bit off topic - the same situation with Turkey. The EU has a customs and trade agreement with Turkey, and this is very convenient for Bulgaria and Greece, which share common borders with Turkey. The border is practically open for small traders with buses and cars, bus tours for shopping...

 

[snusmumriken]

I bought 400ft of Double-X a few months back because I like that look, and even here in the UK it was a bargain price. On the whole, though, I prefer Ilford products, and would do whatever the relative prices of films here.

 

[koraks]

One of the agreements is the avoidance of double taxation. In other words, you should not pay VAT in the UK and in an EU country at the same time on the same item.

Exactly. Which is why, if you purchase from a EU country, you can ask the UK-based seller not to levy UK VAT, since you'll pay VAT in the EU.

From there on we have PERSONAL LUGGAGE delivery. This is not about trading abroad. This is the loophole.

It's fraud. Minor, somewhat understandable and in the large scheme of things rather insignificant. But if you think that what you're doing is somehow a legally permissible exception, you're just fooling yourself. It's only a 'loophole' insofar as you've found a courier that's willing to facilitate a fraudulent transaction.

Again, I'm not here to wave a finger, being moralistic etc. By all means, do as you please.

Here's a relevant excerpt from a Dutch government website:

If I’m in the Netherlands, can I still purchase items from the UK online after Brexit?​

Yes, you can. However, you will have to pay value-added tax (VAT) on (online) products. You will also need to pay import duties if products cost more than €150. Please keep that in mind, to avoid unexpected surprises.

Note that the €150 limit is EU-wide, as is the €22 small-purchase threshold below which you're not required to pay any VAT (note that this includes item price + shipping & handling costs; the total must not exceed €22).

This is from the UK government:

3. Sending goods from Great Britain to the EU​

Sales to EU business customers (previously known as dispatches) will become exports. For VAT purposes, the supply will continue to be zero-rated and evidence of the movement must be kept by the seller. There will be changes to the reporting requirements for these supplies.

Sales to EU consumers will also become exports, following the same general rules as for business customers.

Note the 'zero-rated' since VAT must be paid in the EU country from where the UK-originated purchase is performed.

From the EU:

When you buy online from a non-EU country, VAT must also be paid, just as if you ordered goods that are already located within the EU. The VAT is either paid at the point of purchase on the website (for example, when you buy from a seller who is registered to use the Import One Stop Shop for VAT), or the postal operator or courier may collect the VAT from you on delivery.

Note that paying VAT at the point of purchase is only possible if the seller is registered with the One Stop Shop program, which involves VAT being levied by the seller and paid to the EU country's VAT office they're registered with. Frame24 is to the best of my knowledge not registered with this program, nor has it otherwise any arrangement with an EU-based tax authority that involves Frame24 being able to levy EU VAT. Such custom arrangements are complicated to put into place and to administer and therefore well out of reach of a modest business like Frame24. That's what the One Stop Shop program is there for, but so far, it's mostly larger operations (e.g. AliExpress) that appear to participate in this.

If you desire more sources; here's a good one: https://commission.europa.eu/system/files/2021-01/vat-goods_en.pdf
It details the EU-UK tax arrangements, which for all intents and purposes boil down to "importing from the UK is subject to the same rules as importing from any other non-EU country". It also details the sub-€150 limit and the One Stop Shop arrangement, which don't apply for Frame24 when buying bulk 400ft and larger bulk rolls, since these are valued considerably higher than €150 and Frame24 does not use OSS.

 

[foc]

From there on we have PERSONAL LUGGAGE delivery. This is not about trading abroad. This is the loophole.

I am no EU tax expert but it does sound off to me.
If there is a loop hole, in my experience, the tax authorities usually find it and make that loop hole redundant.

IMO the correct scenario should be,(DDU) you purchase, online from Bulgaria, an item in the UK. This should be sold ex Vat as it is an export (from the UK). Then when it enters Bulgaria, local Vat and/or customs duties, if applicable, are charged at point of entry. The courier/postal service will demand payment of charges and a handling fee before the order is delivered.

Alternatively, (DDP) if the sale is below €150 the UK seller can have an IOSS number, and then they charge the Vat rate of the country in which the purchase was made and any duties if applicable, and the item is delivered with no further charges.

This is my understanding of how Uk and EU sales work post Brexit.

 

[Radost]

I bought 400ft of Double-X a few months back because I like that look, and even here in the UK it was a bargain price. On the whole, though, I prefer Ilford products, and would do whatever the relative prices of films here.

I got 100’ of hp5+ for $89 a month ago. Now is - little over hundred.
So 2 beers in a bar difference.
Some of the penny pinching of film shooters is really strange. .

 

[Alan Edward Klein]

If I was shooting Tri-X, I'd have switched to HP5+ in a heartbeat.

However I don't believe that there are any substitutes that provide the qualities of TMY-2 and TMX that I appreciate, so they continue to be my go-to, and I'll continue to invest my time in trying to get as much as I can from them.

I'd rather spend a few extra $'s on a film that I know, understand, and can predict, than burn the time to relearn, retune, and rejig my processes to adjust to a different film. Film is still relatively inexpensive, even at a few extra $'s per roll - unless one is shooting large volumes - is a relatively small part of the total cost of this hobby for many.

Agreed. Don't just compare the cost of two films. You have to include the cost of gas, tolls, your time, development chemicals, etc. So the percentage of overall cost for just the film is much smaller. If you also include depreciation such as for your camera equipment and darkroom, those costs add a few dollars per shot as well. So the two dollar difference in price for film types doesn't seem so much from an overall hobby standpoint. It's the same with golf. You spend thousands for clubs and greens fee than try to save by buying a dollar cheaper ball that doesn't perform as well.

If budget constrains your purchasing ability, then consider being more selective in your shots. Don't shoot just to shoot. Don't shortchange yourself and be unhappy with the film you use. You're worth the best.

 

[Alan Edward Klein]

TCS prices are within reason for 35mm, but not so much for 120.

I gave up on 35mm bulk rolling when I realized that my inability to effectively max-out the savings due to leader and other error wastage, and the much increased likelihood of film damage and scratches during loading when done by myself - I'll happily pay the difference for perfectly rolled 35mm cartridges.

...and for me, there's no way I'd ever consider the possibility of even entertaining the idea of thinking about buying film from Amazon, for innumerable reasons.

I did it for you and received film that was expiring in just three or four months. Either the seller is buying and reselling old film. Or Amazon allows film to sit on their shelves as the expiry date get closer. So I returned the film. The next time I contacted the seller and asked for the expiry date before purchasing and it was not as good as B&H. So I too stopped buying film (and dated batteries) from Amazon and stick with B&H.

I had a similar issue with batteries from Amazon. The expiry dates on the blister package did not match the date on the batteries. Explain that one! and one of the dates had already expired. There's a lot of funny stuff going on with Amazon sellers. You have to be very careful when buying.

 

[koraks]

Don't just compare the cost of two films.

Indeed.

For instance, I did a (for me) fairly big enlargement the other day of a HP5+ 35mm frame I shot in Paris earlier this year. The print is quite frankly lackluster. Had I shot it on TMY-2, the negative would have cost me about twice as much, but the print would not have been any better.

It's the same with golf.

I see.

 

[Alan Edward Klein]

It is not that simple. And with Brexit - completely... In principle, VAT is due in the country where the transaction is made or where the final destination of the goods is. Brexit has put up barriers but not removed all agreements. The commercial agreement with the UK is 2,500 pages long. One of the agreements is the avoidance of double taxation. In other words, you should not pay VAT in the UK and in an EU country at the same time on the same item. For this purpose, in such orders, one of the parties should not charge VAT. For example, if someone from the US orders something from the EU, they should not be charged VAT. However, the chaos of Brexit makes this difficult.
Especially for my case. There's nothing wrong - I'm transacting on UK territory. The merchant is registered there, the delivery address is also there. All local taxes are paid. From there on we have PERSONAL LUGGAGE delivery. This is not about trading abroad. This is the loophole. And there is no cheating - everything is regulated by both sides. Maybe it will change in the future, maybe not.
A bit off topic - the same situation with Turkey. The EU has a customs and trade agreement with Turkey, and this is very convenient for Bulgaria and Greece, which share common borders with Turkey. The border is practically open for small traders with buses and cars, bus tours for shopping...

When I bought some gifts from Harrods in London on our trip there from America in May, I was told I could fill some form out and then I could get the VAT tax reimbursed at the airport on the way back to the US. Of course, I was told that I would have to pay US import duty if VAT was waived when I got home. The process seemed too opaque. So we skipped it. The few things we bought just wasn't worth it. As it was, America customs never asked us if we were bringing in anything. Years ago, that was one of the questions they always asked on a written form. There was no form. The whole thing is very confusing.

On an amusing side, my wife dragged to England on our vacation from America about two kilograms worth in weight of old British coins. These had been collected by her sister on her many trips over the years to Great Britain. It was coins she had left in her pocket when she returned to America. So when we got to London, it turned out no one wanted them., Apparently their worth had run out when England recently changed their currency. So I called the Bank of England and eventually spoke to the British Mint. There was a nice guy there who listened intently. He asked me to send a photograph of the coins. So, I spread them out on the table and shot and emailed it to him. A couple of days later he said they couldn't do anything with them; that we should check to see if any banks would give us new money for them. They too weren't interested. Only old paper currency. We finally gave up dragging all the coins back to America where they sit again in the sock drawer.

 

[relistan]

When I bought some gift from Harrods in London on our trip there from America in May, I was told I could fill some form out and then I could get the VAT tax reimbursed at the airport on the way back to the US. Of course, I was told that I would have to pay US import duty if VAT was waived when I got home. The process seemed too opaque. So we skipped it. The few things we bought just wasn't worth it. As it was, America customs never asked us if we were bringing in anything. Years ago, that was one of the questions they always asked on a written form. There was no form. The whole thing is very confusing.

The US has a personal import exemption of up to $800 on items that accompany you back from overseas. If you buy stuff overseas and don't exceed that, they are not going to charge you duties on it (there are other limits, i.e. on alcohol, etc). The VAT-free schemes in most European countries are worth doing if you are resident in the US and heading home and spent any real money there. It means you end up with no sales tax and unless you exceed the personal import exemption, you will owe no customs duty, either. There are some other limits e.g. on timing, certain products: https://help.cbp.gov/s/article/Article-246?language=en_US . Even without the form you are supposed to declare what you are bringing, but they do make that hard. If they ask you should tell them (they sometimes do), but in general I find that they don't even ask most of the time now.