Any suggestions for a paper developer with good longevity?

BMbikerider said:

It isn't working strength developer that I keep in bottles it is the raw undiluted developer. Splitting a 5 litre container and not taking steps to prevent the remining developer to 'go off' is a no brainer. I have used the storage in 1/2 litre dark brown glass bottles for undiluted developer for perhaps close on 30 years with 100% success. I am coming to the end of one 5 litre container which I opened around 2 years ago and it is as good now as the day it was manufactured.
I almost always use a new solution of developer for each session, but if I have made only a couple of 10x9.5 prints one evening, then I have been known to finish off what I was doing the following day in the same developer which was left in an open dish.
It may be of interest that I always use water to dilute the developer concentrate that has been boiled and itself kept in a sealed container where it cools down. Boiling the water drives off the excess dissolved oxygen which may allow an extended developing life of the working solution.

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I'm looking for longevity of the working strength developer since I have limited time for printing and would prefer to spend that time printing rather than mixing chemistry. I usually buy the developer in the 500ml bottles so I'm less worried about the concentrate going off.

I tend to get good results with Kodak Polymax T, both in print quality and in shelf life. I don't print that often and when I do it's usually only a few sheets through the developer per session.
When I mix a small batch of working solution (usually 500-750ml), I can use it in trays (my sessions are usually about 3-4 hours) and then store it in a full, tightly capped PET bottle afterwards for at least two months and still get good results when reusing it in the next session(s).
I keep track of the number of prints I've put through it and I easily get the 32 sheets 8x10" per liter of working solution with very good print quality, even after two months.

Unfortunately, Polymax T doesn't seem to be available anywhere in the EU currently, so I'm looking at alternatives too.
In the past I've used Adotol Konstant, which works and keeps quite well too but takes up a lot of space in my small chemicals-cupboard since I'd need to mix 5 liters at once and then store all of it for a longer period of time.
So a liquid concentrate would probably be more convenient.

Adox Neutol NE seems to go off fairy quickly and I haven't been able to store the working solution even for a few days, although I've only tested this developer twice with a couple of small 100ml concentrate bottles to see if it would work for me.

The mentioned Moersch ECO4812 seems like a good candidate, the keeping properties (8 months for working solution, 2-4 years for the concentrate) are simply brilliant!
What confuses me is that it's stated to be a neutral tone developer but in the description on mr Moersch's website it's also mentioned to probably be the best warmtone developer in the world.
As a somewhat darkroom rookie I'm not sure what to expect when used with neutral tone papers
I mainly use Ilford MGIV RC and MGV RC, Fomabrom FB & Fomaspeed RC Variant papers and I'm not sure how the prints would turn out on such neutral tone papers, compared to any other neutral tone developer? Would they be just neutral toned or will they turn out much warmer?

Another developer that has my interest but can't find a lot of information on, is Ilford Japan Silverchrome BW paper developer. Does anyone have any experience with it?
Reading the MSDS as a rookie with no proper chemistry knowledge, it seems to be at least somewhat similar to Kodak Polymax T so it could have similar keeping properties, or am I completely wrong here?

logan2z said:

I'm looking for longevity of the working strength developer since I have limited time for printing and would prefer to spend that time printing rather than mixing chemistry. I usually buy the developer in the 500ml bottles so I'm less worried about the concentrate going off.

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Wow! That is really uneconomic! The larger quantity you buy the cheaper it becomes. Apart from the one time I have mentioned when I kept the solution overnight I always only use it for one session. I don't know how much a half litre bottle costs, but buying 1 litre and decanting half of it into a half litre bottle you will already start to make a saving. Apart from the problem that part used developer also 'goes off' more quickly you almost certainly get reduced activity and less quality with a print.

I know a 1 litre bottle in UK is £15 (about 20$) I can buy 5 litres for £31 (38$) Split a 5 litre bottle into 10 1/2 litre bottles the unused developer will keep for at least 2 years! I know this as a fact. Ilford are very conservative in the life of unused but correctly stored developers. Fresh mixed ID11 film developer in a glass bottle will keep for AT LEAST the same time.

When you consider the cost of film and paper compared to the price of new developer it really doesn't add up.

One more vote for developer 130, which is sold as 1L to 8L kits of stock solution by Photographer's Formulary.

I've never had it go bad on me, and time seems to have no effect on it! I keep the stock solution for months in HDPE bottles.

I use it 1+1 and monitor usage according to the recommendations of PF. A very well-used solution will work more slowly, but it will still work. By that point, I dump and mix again.

BMbikerider said:

Wow! That is really uneconomic! The larger quantity you buy the cheaper it becomes. Apart from the one time I have mentioned when I kept the solution overnight I always only use it for one session. I don't know how much a half litre bottle costs, but buying 1 litre and decanting half of it into a half litre bottle you will already start to make a saving. Apart from the problem that part used developer also 'goes off' more quickly you almost certainly get reduced activity and less quality with a print.

I know a 1 litre bottle in UK is £15 (about 20$) I can buy 5 litres for £31 (38$) Split a 5 litre bottle into 10 1/2 litre bottles the unused developer will keep for at least 2 years! I know this as a fact. Ilford are very conservative in the life of unused but correctly stored developers. Fresh mixed ID11 film developer in a glass bottle will keep for AT LEAST the same time.

When you consider the cost of film and paper compared to the price of new developer it really doesn't add up.

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It is certainly much cheaper to buy the 5L bottle than 500ml bottles - the difference is about 2x here in the US. But I shied away from buying the larger quantities since I was under the impression that it would go bad long before I was able to use it. But it sounds like Ilford is very conservative when stating the longevity of its concentrated chemicals.

logan2z said:

I've traditionally used Ilford's Multigrade Developer to make fiber-based prints and like the results I get with it, but it goes off too quickly and I'd like something that I can re-use across several printing sessions.

I've read good things about Eco Pro and Liquidol and both are reported to have pretty good longevity when mixed at working strength. Is there a strong argument for one over the other? Are there other options to consider as well? My preference is for a pretty neutral developer (I don't tone my prints), and I would strongly prefer a liquid developer rather than mixing my own from powders.

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If you are filling the developer back into a plastic bottle, holding that volume or just a little more and the bottle is tightly capped, You can use the developer over several printing sessions. This is true for D72(Dektol) and many others.

I mix ID-62 myself. Just a few raw chemicals and measuring spoons. I have two liters of working solution that is going on day four in the darkroom (albeit, not a whole lot of prints each day). I store the developer in a two-liter bottle between sessions.

There is the initial investment in chemicals, but the developer itself is only pennies per liter. Even if it didn't last a fairly long time, it would be economical.

Doremus

RalphLambrecht said:

If you are filling the developer back into a plastic bottle, holding that volume or just a little more and the bottle is tightly capped, You can use the developer over several printing sessions. This is true for D72(Dektol) and many others.

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I saved the developer (1L) from my last printing session in a tightly capped 1L Jobo bottle . I'll reuse it for my next printing session and see how it goes.

My favourite print developers are 130 and LPD.... but for day-to-day printing and small work prints i use Ilford. Multigrade. Like BMbikerider .....i find it very economical and i always buy developers in the largest quantity possible. I never decant Multigrade from the 5 litre container and it works fine even after the colour changes.

logan2z said:

It seems to oxidize fairly quickly in open trays. I haven't experimented too much with storing it and re-using it over multiple print sessions, I was mainly going off of the Ilford data sheet that says:

Working strength MULTIGRADE developer, PQ UNIVERSAL and BROMOPHEN left in an open dish should not be kept for more than one working day. If stored in a tightly capped bottle they may last up to 24 hours.

That didn't give me confidence that the working strength developer would keep well in bottles between sessions.

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I've used Bromophen for years. I prepare the 5L of stock solution. Next I divide up the stock into 19 very full 250ml PET bottles. When I want to print I take a 250ml bottle, dilute to 1 L. I use it then store it in a 1 L Jobo bottle. I don't store the working solution much more than a week.
I never leave solutions sitting in open trays. Keeps chemistry fresh and trays nice and clean.

Bromophen and LPD (and similar products) are known for good keeping and zero metol.

logan2z said:

It is certainly much cheaper to buy the 5L bottle than 500ml bottles - the difference is about 2x here in the US. But I shied away from buying the larger quantities since I was under the impression that it would go bad long before I was able to use it. But it sounds like Ilford is very conservative when stating the longevity of its concentrated chemicals.

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Just to emphasise I use screw top glass bottles with plastic inserts and not just any old bottles. Just to reiterate when I break into a 1/2 litre bottle I further decant it into 100cc glass bottles with the same type of screw top that way you only have one small bottle open at once so this stops or retards any degradation before the 1/2 litre bottle can be used.

However the original 1 litre or 1/2 litre plastic bottles may be almost as good. The plastic is probably thick enough to stop oxygen permeating through.

logan2z said:

I've traditionally used Ilford's Multigrade Developer to make fiber-based prints and like the results I get with it, but it goes off too quickly and I'd like something that I can re-use across several printing sessions.

I've read good things about Eco Pro and Liquidol and both are reported to have pretty good longevity when mixed at working strength. Is there a strong argument for one over the other? Are there other options to consider as well? My preference is for a pretty neutral developer (I don't tone my prints), and I would strongly prefer a liquid developer rather than mixing my own from powders.

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Buy the bulk chemicals (from Artcraft if you're in the US, they're consistently the cheapest) and mix your own D-72.

Just take care to observe good lab practices - protect your eyes, hands, and breathing with a appropriate coverings and mix according to instructions. Make sure you're working in good ventilation.

The beauty of this is that you an make enough stock for the foreseeable future and it will run out before it goes bad. Just be sure to store in brown glass bottles with polycone style caps and the stock will be fine on the shelf for some months. (unless made specifically for the task, plastic bottles are permeable to air which will cause the developer to oxidize prematurely.) The raw chemicals - if stored in a clean, dry place, should be good for a very long time.

BMbikerider said:

Just to emphasise I use screw top glass bottles with plastic inserts and not just any old bottles.

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I store my film developing chemicals in amber glass bottles with plastic inserts. I'll probably order some for my printing chemicals as well. At the moment I'm using Jobo brown plastic bottles for my printing chemistry that are supposed to be ok for chemical storage, but maybe not as good as glass.

otto.f said:

Thanks for the tip!
Btw, Wolfgang Moersch is a very polite and modest man. He claims his eco 4812 as probably the best warmtone developer in the world. I use it for neutral paper too (Bergger) and the blacks are indeed neutral with that paper.

ECO 4812 | Wolfgang Moersch Photochemie

www.moersch-photochemie.de

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When I read about a good warm tone paper developer, I look up the MSDS to see if there's any information that might help me in my DIY mixing. I notice that in the Moersch 4812 there is "1,4 dihydroxybenzene potassium salt"

1,4 dihydroxybenzene is hydroquinone, but I've never come across a potassium salt of it. Could this be the secret to its long life?

RalphLambrecht said:

If you are filling the developer back into a plastic bottle, holding that volume or just a little more and the bottle is tightly capped, You can use the developer over several printing sessions. This is true for D72(Dektol) and many others.

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I routinely keep my working strength LPD in bottles after a printing session. It lasts...well I haven't found a limit. I once glanced at the label on the bottle (I put a piece of masking tape on it and write what's in it, dilution, and the date I mixed/diluted it) and thought, "two months old, I'll give it a try..." and it worked fine. Only when pouring it back into the bottle did I notice it was an old bottle that got pushed to the back and forgotten and was dated the previous YEAR, so it was fourteen months old. Full plastic bottle with air squeezed out. Again this is working strength dilution.

L Gebhardt said:

Ansco 130. I replenish it and it last months. It's mixed from powders, but I think it's worth the hassle. You can get it in a kit or mix it yourself from the individual components. The formulary kit is easy to mix and if you dump the contents underwater there is no dust, if that's your concern.

LPD was my previous dev of choice, but I've only used the powder. If I recall there's a concentration difference with the liquid vs mixed powder.

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I'll second the Ansco 130.

I've had that s developer in use in a year plus usage and it keeps on giving.

If you mix it from components, use all the Glycin to mix up a larger batch, jug the excess liquid and when you're ready, use it, with about 5% of the old dark developer, to season it, it'll still be good to go.

Only Amidol will give blacker blacks, on fb papers, IMO.

Thanks for all of the recommendations. I just ordered some liquid LPD and am looking forward to giving it a try.

I use brown glass 1 ltr bottles to store my LPD. Works great. Check with a beer/brewery supply shop or Amazon...

Growler fill bottles (with good caps) are great - and the finger grip is a real plus.
From a local tap house:
https://deepcovecraft.com/products/copy-of-toque

john_s said:

When I read about a good warm tone paper developer, I look up the MSDS to see if there's any information that might help me in my DIY mixing. I notice that in the Moersch 4812 there is "1,4 dihydroxybenzene potassium salt"

1,4 dihydroxybenzene is hydroquinone, but I've never come across a potassium salt of it. Could this be the secret to its long life?

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Attempting to answer my own question. Looking up the CAS number from the Moersch web site for this compound, it is not simply hydroquinone plus K+ but something else. Probably not easily available for hobbyists. Not often we come across a new developing agent.