Any Ilfotec-HC users near Boston, MA, USA?

[Steve Goldstein]

My wife and I are planning some international travel at the end of the summer, COVID willing. With the increasing adoption of film-destroying CT-based carry-on scanners and the difficulty of getting hand-inspection outside the US, my plan is to develop my exposed 120 rolls before returning home. There's a community darkroom where we'll be traveling that standardizes on Ilfotec-HC. I plan to bring some Pyrocat-HD concentrate with me but there's a risk it might not be allowed through security (I have no idea what it looks like to an X-ray scanner). Since I might be forced to use Ilfotec-HC, with which I have no experience, I'd like to do some pre-travel testing just in case.

Here's the problem. Ilfotec-HC concentrate is sold only in 1-liter containers that mix to 4 liters of stock, and that container costs US$72 at B+H. Yikes! Since I need just a few liters at most of working-strength solution for my testing I'd probably end up wasting >>90% of the concentrate. I'm looking for someone vaguely local to me from whom I can buy a bit of fresh concentrate for my tests.

I've read on the Internet (so it must be true!) that Ilfotec-HC and HC-110 behave very similarly with most films, and I still have a couple of bottles of old-style HC-110 that I use for developing unsharp masks. If the two developers are sufficiently similar when used with FP4+, TMX, and/or TMY then I can use HC-110 for my testing. Does anyone have experience with these specific films in both HC-110 and Ilfotec-HC?

Anyone?

 

[drmoss_ca]

Ilfotec HC is Ilford's version of HC-110. It's not as viscous as the classic HC-110 syrup, but development should be the same in it. Legacy Pro L-110 is another, cheaper, clone.

 

[John Bragg]

I have moved over to HC from HC-110 and see no discernable difference. You could always use Ilfotec LC to do your testing, as it is the same soup in more diluted form. Also HC lasts damned near forever in a sealed bottle so it may be useful long term. I split mine into 100ml bottles just to be sure.....

 

[McDiesel]

@John Bragg you said you see no difference, but does this conclusion include grain? How would you compare HP5+ grain on HC vs HC-110? I am just starting to play with Ilfotec HC and it baffles me that HP5+ grain is coarser in it vs ID-11. Meanwhile, most online sources list HC-110 as finer grained than D76 variants. Thanks.

 

[bags27]

Not that it helps really, but Freestyle sells it for $65--but of course you pay shipping there. But betting if you ask this question at the Photographic Historical Society of New England (suburban Boston), someone will have some for you to test.

I've got into the habit of express mailing my film back to me. I also have unexposed film shipped to the first secure place I'll be, so I don't go through airports with unexposed or exposed film. The extra cost has been worth the peace of mind.

 

[eurekaiv]

Ilfotec HC is Ilford's version of HC-110. It's not as viscous as the classic HC-110 syrup, but development should be the same in it. Legacy Pro L-110 is another, cheaper, clone.

I saw this and was thinking... the last time I bought some L110 (like 2 months ago) it was essentially the same price as Kodak HC-110, which comes in 1L bottles versus L110s .47L (1 pint). Looks like the Kodak stuff has gone up in price though, as it's now $.043/mL vs. .032/mL for the LegacyPro.

For the OP... I prefer the Legacy to Kodak for it's less syrupy consistency and as it follows, ease of measuring—and while I haven't used Kodak's version since the 90s, current results look about like I always remembered HC-110 looking so it's fine for me. I would guess that L110 and Ilfotec-HC are closer than Kodak is to LegacyPro since the consistencies are reportedly similar, but I've never used Ilford chems before since they're so much more expensive here in the US.

 

[John Bragg]

@John Bragg you said you see no difference, but does this conclusion include grain? How would you compare HP5+ grain on HC vs HC-110? I am just starting to play with Ilfotec HC and it baffles me that HP5+ grain is coarser in it vs ID-11. Meanwhile, most online sources list HC-110 as finer grained than D76 variants. Thanks.

It does seem similar
Very sharp and regular, but that might not suit everyones taste. Lately I find myself preferring Ilfosol 3 for HP5+ @ ei200. See example below.

Green Goddess headlight detail. by E.J. Bragg, on Flickr

 

[McDiesel]

@John Bragg the image is super smooth even @2048px wide on Flickr, hard to judge grain quality. Instead, would you mind taking a look at my 5000px scan of HP5+ in Ilfotec HC and see if it's similar to what you've been getting on HC-110 please? Thanks.

 

[John Bragg]

@John Bragg the image is super smooth even @2048px wide on Flickr, hard to judge grain quality. Instead, would you mind taking a look at my 5000px scan of HP5+ in Ilfotec HC and see if it's similar to what you've been getting on HC-110 please? Thanks.

Your image seems to exhibit coarse grain. What exposure index did you use and what dilution and agitation ?
For HC I use ei200 and dilution H or 1:63. Development is 12 minutes @ 20°c with agitation for first 30 seconds, then 2 invertions at 4 minutes and 2 at 8 minutes. Keeps grain down and gives nice scans. Also compensating effect.

 

[McDiesel]

@John Bragg I used incident metering @EI 400, developed using the datasheet time using 1+47 dilution. 20 seconds initial inversion agitation followed by 3 inversions every minute. I will try to experiment with different dilutions, but I have never seen any change in grain (for any film or any developer) based on agitation, so I will leave this for later. Thank you!

 

[pentaxuser]

Steve, any luck on the first part of your thread?

"I'm looking for someone vaguely local to me from whom I can buy a bit of fresh concentrate for my tests."

Are you happy on the second part with what you have received as answers?

pentaxuser

 

[NB23]

@John Bragg you said you see no difference, but does this conclusion include grain? How would you compare HP5+ grain on HC vs HC-110? I am just starting to play with Ilfotec HC and it baffles me that HP5+ grain is coarser in it vs ID-11. Meanwhile, most online sources list HC-110 as finer grained than D76 variants. Thanks.

Most sources are wrong; they copy paste what has already been copypasted...

But a question to you: do you compare to 1:1 ID-11? There is a difference in results between 1:0 and 1;1

 

[NB23]

@John Bragg I used incident metering @EI 400, developed using the datasheet time using 1+47 dilution. 20 seconds initial inversion agitation followed by 3 inversions every minute. I will try to experiment with different dilutions, but I have never seen any change in grain (for any film or any developer) based on agitation, so I will leave this for later. Thank you!

No, agitation has NO effect on grain.

That’s another myth that needs to stop.

 

[McDiesel]

But a question to you: do you compare to 1:1 ID-11? There is a difference in results between 1:0 and 1;1

Thank you for joining the thread. Fun fact: the reason I am experimenting with Ilfotec HC is your comments from the past (I often search these forums instead of posting) praising HC.

I am comparing to stock full-strength ID-11, I always use this combination as a starting point for exploration. Basically I judge all films and developers by comparing various combinations to to HP5 in stock ID-11.

Here's high-res (60MP sensor, downsampled to 5,000px on wide side) scans:

• HP5+ in full strength ID-11
• HP5+ in Ilfotec HC
• Delta 400 in full strength ID-11
• Delta 400 in Ilfotec HC

Ilfotec HC is grainer with both films. Here's how replenished Xtol scores:

• HP5+ in Xtol-R
• Delta 400 in Xtol-R

 

[Lachlan Young]

Ilfotec-HC and HC-110 behave very similarly with most films,

HC seems to have been intended as a functional equivalent for HC-110 in use. The main point is that you can't/ shouldn't try to intermix them in a replenished system. People at this remove tend to forget that across a broad swathe of the graphic arts world HC-110 was the predominant developer used - and thus there was a strong business case for Ilford & Agfa (Studional/ Rodinal Spezial) producing functionally equivalent/ similar products.

I plan to bring some Pyrocat-HD concentrate with me

It really, really, really isn't a magic solution, no matter how much huffing & puffing & fearful hand-wringing people on the internet engage in. There are better designed developers than what is a pretty simple set of substitutions on D-76 to make it produce a stain via an oxidised dihydroxybenzene (really a dye of unknown archival properties).

Instead, would you mind taking a look at my 5000px scan of HP5+ in Ilfotec HC and see if it's similar to what you've been getting on HC-110 please

HC-110 is usually fractionally less sharp & slightly worse in shadow speed than D-76 (for example) - and while nominally fractionally less grainy, I suspect HC-110 users have a propensity to try and compensate for the lowering of shadow speed not through increasing exposure but through increasing processing time instead. And the 1+47 is 50% more dilute than dilution B that's usually used in the official comparisons - which might be enough to take a fairly solvent PQ developer & knock it down into a category where it is only negligibly more solvent than a non-solvent developer (in terms of edge density).

 

[Steve Goldstein]

Steve, any luck on the first part of your thread?

"I'm looking for someone vaguely local to me from whom I can buy a bit of fresh concentrate for my tests."

Are you happy on the second part with what you have received as answers?

pentaxuser

No, I still haven't found anyone local who uses Ilfotec HD. The trip we'd been discussing got postponed anyway due to Covid-19 (no surprise there) so the urgency to my question was diminished.

The discussions did remind me of the existence of Legacy Pro L110, which I'd forgotten about. B+H carry it and the price is a lot more reasonable for experimentation purposes. It's feasible to bring some when I travel, more so than the Pyrocat-HD I normally use since it's a single solution. There's a bottle in my B+H shopping cart.

 

[NB23]

I’d gladly send you a little bottle of 125ml if I was in the US.

 

[NB23]

Thank you for joining the thread. Fun fact: the reason I am experimenting with Ilfotec HC is your comments from the past (I often search these forums instead of posting) praising HC.

I am comparing to stock full-strength ID-11, I always use this combination as a starting point for exploration. Basically I judge all films and developers by comparing various combinations to to HP5 in stock ID-11.

Here's high-res (60MP sensor, downsampled to 5,000px on wide side) scans:

• HP5+ in full strength ID-11
• HP5+ in Ilfotec HC
• Delta 400 in full strength ID-11
• Delta 400 in Ilfotec HC

Ilfotec HC is grainer with both films. Here's how replenished Xtol scores:

• HP5+ in Xtol-R
• Delta 400 in Xtol-R

Great test, great scans and great consistency.

What I see is that HP5 in HC looks best. Less shadow detail but that’s why you get more character in return. This is obvious in the general Contrast of the scans. Also, the black square is the darkest. Looks best, at least to my taste.

 

[McDiesel]

Thank you. I came back to film a couple of years ago. Not having a dark room left me only with scanning. Grain quality matters a lot because scanning worsens grain. Not makes it bigger, but worsens... makes it look unnatural. So I focused on fine-grain developers and films, primarily Xtol and Delta.

As high quality scanning became available to me, this concern went away. High-res scanning makes grain look similar to wet prints, and I am starting to prefer grainier appearance now. Having tried Rodinal recently I found it beautiful, and I am liking HP5 in Ilfotec HC as well.

I still want to compare it to Kodak's HC-110. A bottle is only $40 at a local shop, I should probably get it and see for myself. Hopefully I'll find someone else to donate the excess to.

 

[NB23]

Ilfosol-3 is my choice for grain

 

[NB23]

Hc110 is 10$ off at B&H right now... 27$

 

[pentaxuser]

No, I still haven't found anyone local who uses Ilfotec HD. The trip we'd been discussing got postponed anyway due to Covid-19 (no surprise there) so the urgency to my question was diminished.

The discussions did remind me of the existence of Legacy Pro L110, which I'd forgotten about. B+H carry it and the price is a lot more reasonable for experimentation purposes. It's feasible to bring some when I travel, more so than the Pyrocat-HD I normally use since it's a single solution. There's a bottle in my B+H shopping cart.

Thanks for the reply Steve. My reading of Ilfotec HC is that it is the equivalent of HC110 as near as damn it but there was some doubt about its longevity v HC110. However now that HC110 has changed the jury may be out on HC 110's legendary longevity. With both developers including the old HC110 the longevity range hardly matters unless your usage is low

Caveat: I say my reading as opposed to use as I am basing the above on the numerous threads I have read and not on any personal experience

pentaxuser

 

[Lachlan Young]

High-res scanning makes grain look similar to wet prints, and I am starting to prefer grainier appearance now. Having tried Rodinal recently

Rodinal is a fairly ruthless test of higher frequency sharpness/ image content transmission of scanning systems - and its generally not-as-good low frequency sharpness also plays into this.

 

[McDiesel]

Well... As I am recovering from an injury, stuck at home with nothing to do, I will probably end up developing similar exposures in Rodinal vs Ilfosol 3, as well as Kodak HC-110 vs Ilfotec HC. Will make sure to share the results. Should be useful because I couldn't find a single place on the Internet comparing HC-110 and Ilfotec HC.

 

[John Bragg]

Well... As I am recovering from an injury, stuck at home with nothing to do, I will probably end up developing similar exposures in Rodinal vs Ilfosol 3, as well as Kodak HC-110 vs Ilfotec HC. Will make sure to share the results. Should be useful because I couldn't find a single place on the Internet comparing HC-110 and Ilfotec HC.

Good luck in your endeavors. I had poor results with Rodinal and somehow Ilfosol 3 just works much better for me personally.