Any Hard Data On Silver Quantity?

[Jennifer]

Hi,
What to do with used fixer seems to be the most asked, and debated question, next to purple negatives on the web. It's very simple to deal with and you don't have to buy a silver recovery unit. Just dump it in your neighbors yard. Hold on...Just kidding !. A local place that I buy some chemicals from, and they do film processing there said I could bring them the used fixer. They will dump it in their silver recovery unit. There you have it. I did the right thing for the enviroment, and they get a bit of silver. Every one is happy....

Jennifer

 

[Ed Sukach]

Ed,

Why do you rely on the work of others to answer your questions? Many of this is answerable with a mediocre search machine? You got some answers, they don´t suit your predefined expectations. So?

Thanks, Roman. My '"mediocre" search machine was Google, among others. Led me to what seemed to be an impenetrable maze. I appreciate your generous help. I was searching for "Environmental Protection ..." and permutations. I don't use Kodak products -- so I never thought of them.

After some study of Kodak's literature, I made a rough estimate (far finer than any I've been able to do until now) and came up with a grand total of silver in question in *MY* lab: 2.561 Troy ounces/ year.

Also, after extensive study of the other Kodak publications .. I AM in compliance with the Law/ Rules and Regulations.

This is an *interesting* read - especially the publication dealing with the Environmental effect of silver from photograpic processing.

Again, thanks, Roman. The headache I now have would have been a lot worse without your help.

.... You can´t, so´ll end up with a critical amount of hazardous material at one moment or the other and then the bacteriae in your sewage system will jump the shark due to a few seeing only themselves when looking in the mirror.

Oh. Interesting comment - I guess. Wonder what it means??

 

[Ed Sukach]

Hi,
What to do with used fixer seems to be the most asked, and debated question,...
A local place that I buy some chemicals from, and they do film processing there said I could bring them the used fixer. They will dump it in their silver recovery unit. There you have it. I did the right thing for the enviroment, and they get a bit of silver. Every one is happy.... Jennifer

Hi, Jennifer.

I don't buy my chemistry locally - shipping wastes or carrying them somewhere would be a burden. I process all of my own work - so I don't frequent outside processing labs.

The price of intense individualism, I guess.

Does anyone have an opinion of whether or not Jim Beam is "good" for a headache??

 

[Aggie]

If you ever make it to Park City Utah, you will know the town is built on top of miles of old silver mining tunnels. I use to chemistry experiments for the local school children. The one test was to see what ph your water was. One of the indicators would turn the water milky. That was silver nitrate. Well by complete hapenstance. the water turned extremely milky when I was setting up to do the test. indicating there was silver nitrate in the tap water. I went around to several of my friends homes, and did the same test at their residences. ALL had silver nitrate in the water. Not just minute amounts, but a considerable amount. ALL of the towns waste materials are treated half way down the canyon to SLC. That plant has not had any problem what so ever with bacteria being killed off. The question would be then, if silver is so horrible, why has it not harmed the population of that community? It has been around for well over a 100 years. Osgothropes use to have the local dairy. Thousands of tourists frequent the resorts. The olympics were partial held htere a few years back. Park City residents are are among the most rabid of evnornmentalists in the state. Not one of them has ever questioned silver content in their drinking water.

 

[dancqu]

I would simply soak the film in household
bleach until the emulsion has dissolved in it

I'd think that a little messy. A standard thiosulfate
extraction should do and without the goo. Dan

 

[Ed Sukach]

Before we accept oversimplification - I would suggest reading up on the information in the Kodak sites provided by RJR dealing with determining the amount of silver in various effluents.

Apparently not as easy as suggested here.

 

[Bob Carnie]

Hi Aggie

Not meeting you or your fellow residents I will hold judgement, But I did notice a lot of ads for Brasso on the Park City website,

 

[Kirk Keyes]

Aha! A possible light at the end of the tunnel.

What is this "EPA 13 Priority Pollutant Metals list"?. Where can I obtain a copy?

Any idea of the "adverse effects"??

Ed, In the United States, the Code of Federal Regulations - also known as "CFR", contains the laws that the federal government has enacted. Title 40 CFR, "Protection of Environment" contains regulations that the US government has enacted upon different industries. Before we get to the preface for photographic discharge, you may want to know that a "point source" is a stationary location or fixed facility from which pollutants are discharged or emitted. Any single identifiable source of pollution, such as a pipe or factory smokestack or a pipe that discharges wastewater/effluent into a sewer system is a point source.


[Code of Federal Regulations]
[Title 40, Volume 26]
[Revised as of July 1, 2002]
From the U.S. Government Printing Office via GPO Access
[CITE: 40CFR459.10]

[Page 510]

TITLE 40--PROTECTION OF ENVIRONMENT

CHAPTER I--ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION AGENCY (CONTINUED)

PART 459--PHOTOGRAPHIC POINT SOURCE CATEGORY--Table of Contents

Subpart A--Photographic Processing Subcategory

Sec. 459.10 Applicability; description of the photographic processing subcategory.


The provisions of this subpart are applicable to point source
discharges resulting from the development or printing of paper prints,
slides, negatives, enlargements, movie film, and other sensitized
materials except that facilities processing 150 sq. meters (1600 sq.
feet) per day or less are not covered. Both commercial and military
facilities are covered by this subpart.

End of Quote-

So if anyone here, is in the USA, and they process more than 150 sq. m. of film a day, you will have to follow the regulations listed in 40 CFR Part 459. If you produce less, you are not required to. Of course, if you are below that limit and still want to reclaim silver, great - go for it!

For those that don't like to click on supplied links, here's what they have to say on regulatory limits - note that the units are listed in kg of pollutant per 1000 sq. m. of processed product...

(a) The following limitations establish the quantity or quality of
pollutants or pollutant properties, controlled by this paragraph, which
may be discharged from a photographic processing point source subject to
the provisions of this paragraph after application of the best
practicable control technology currently available:

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Effluent limitations
-----------------------------
Column 1 - Maximum for any 1 day
Column 2 - Averages of daily values for 30 consecutive days shall not exceed-
-
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Metric units (kilograms per 1,000 m^2 of product)

Ag........................................ 0.14 ............ 0.07
CN........................................ 0.18 ............ 0.09
pH........................................ (\1\) ............(\1\)

------------------------------------------------------------------------
(\1\) Within the pH range 6.0 to 9.0.

If you want more info, try this page:
www.access.gpo.gov/nara/cfr/waisidx_02/40cfr459_02.html


If you are really getting interested regulatory issues, follow this link:
http://www.epa.gov/fedsite/medical/photo.html
This link is from theEPA and it gives information specifically for medical film processing but the advice it gives will certainly apply to regular commercial processors as well.

It covers some info on the National Pollution Discharge Elimination System (NPDES) - which also has regulations about what can be discharged out of your sewer pipe. it says that 5 mg/L of Silver is the limit for discharge under NPDES. It also lists some other compounds of concern as well.

Kirk - www.keyesphoto.com

 

[Kirk Keyes]

What is this "EPA 13 Priority Pollutant Metals list"?. Where can I obtain a copy?

The Priority Pollutant Metals (13) are Ag, As, Be, Cd, Cr, Cu, Hg, Ni, Pb, Sb, Se, Tl, Zn.

There is also a list of 17 - Appendix IX Metals (17) - Ag, As, Ba, Be, Cd, Co, Cr, Cu, Hg, Ni, Pb, Sb, Se, Sn, Tl, V, Zn

And then there are the RCRA METALS (8) - Ag, As, Ba, Cd, Cr, Hg, Pb, Se

And how about the CLP TAL METALS (23) - Ag, Al, As, Ba, Be, Ca, Cd, Co, Cr, Cu, Fe, Hg, K, Mg, Mn, Na, Ni, Pb, Sb, Se, Tl, V, Zn

Those are the major metals lists that are of concern in environmental work - which list you use depends on which regulatory program your waste/discharge/effluent falls under.

I'll leave the google search to you to find the effects of silver on the environment for now...

Kirk

 

[lee]

so exactly how does this information make me a better photographer?


lee\c

 

[Kirk Keyes]

Sure, we learned that in freshman chemistry. That is why that mixture is called "aqua regia". How often do you encounter that potent reagent in nature outside of Pittsburg or L.A.? I can get HCl at the hardware store. Where do I get nitric acid? I still don't see how a silver spoon in my back yard would be attacked by anything but SO2 in the air or water here. The coating of silver sulfide protects it from further reaction. That is one reason for sulfide-sepia toning.

Patrick, I guess I was not specific enough in my discusion of silver reactivity - I have had a bit of a cold lately...

I did not mean to say that you had to combine nitric and hydrochloric acid to attack silver. And you don't, if you remember back to your freshman chemistry. Certainly aqua regia will dissolve silver, as well as gold, but even simple, dilute nitric OR hydrochloric can dissolve it as well. In fact, I can tell you from first hand experience that silver left in an acetic acid solution will dissolve, as I accidentally did this to an expensive silver electrode once!

Patrick - what topic are you on now? The stability of silver spoons in air, or the original subjuct of determining the amount of silver in photographic materials?? Please try to stay on topic.

 

[Kirk Keyes]

so exactly how does this information make me a better photographer?


lee\c

It most likely does not make you a better photographer, but it will make you a better informed photographer. After all, isn't that why you are on this forum?

 

[gainer]

Kirk, you are a rascal. You lead me off topic and then cajole me for grtting off topic.

Silver or any other metal in an electrolytic solution with a dissimilar metal will form a cell with some specific potential. If you leave a tarnished silver spoon in an aluminum pot of vinegar or even tomato juice, the tarnish will be removed electrolytically. Is it the sulfur being removed, or the silver sulfide? Who cares. The topic began IIRC as "How much silver is there in photographic emulsions? Is there any hard data? It seems to have evolved into a discussion about disposal of darkroom effluents, how and why. I still do not see the place where I caused the departure. I merely gave a method of roughly approximating the amount of silver left in exposed and developed film.

 

[Jorge]

I'd think that a little messy. A standard thiosulfate
extraction should do and without the goo. Dan

The difference is that you "think" while I have done it. it is not messy at all, although a bit smelly but I have extractors in my DR.

 

[Ed Sukach]

OK. I have formed, or rather, reinforced a few opinions - based on this thread and the information I've been able to glean from all the references. To summarize:

1. I was, and continue to be, In compliance with the Laws/ Rules/ Regulations.

2. The above notwithstanding ... My work in my darkroom DOES NOT have anything like a significantly adverse effect on the environment.

3. The recovery of silver from my darkroom DOES NOT make financial sense.

These are my current - and I would submit - considered opinions. No real change from what I thought previously - but with additional logical support.

 

[Ed Sukach]

I'll leave the google search to you to find the effects of silver on the environment for now...
Kirk

Done last night. Most helpful was - from RJR:

http://www.kodak.com/global/en/corp/environment/kes/pubs/pdfs/J216.pdf

 

[dancqu]

The difference is that you "think" while I have done
it. it is not messy at all, although a bit smelly ...

Perhaps an extraction with thiosulfate is too obvious.
I did one last night. Nothing to it.
I can't imagine whats to be gained by stripping the
emulsion. Dan

 

[Kirk Keyes]

Done last night. Most helpful was - from RJR:

http://www.kodak.com/global/en/corp/environment/kes/pubs/pdfs/J216.pdf

Yes - That was a very useful and informative set of links!

Kirk - www.keyesphoto.com

 

[gainer]

Perhaps an extraction with thiosulfate is too obvious.
I did one last night. Nothing to it.
I can't imagine whats to be gained by stripping the
emulsion. Dan

Nothing but whatever elemental silver may be in it, which will not be extracted by thiosulfate. If you think there might be enough to worry about, you could use Farmer's reducer to bleach the silver and convert it to the silver-thiosulfate complex or whatever the heck we get in our fixer. Or use blix from a color developing kit.

 

[dancqu]

Nothing but whatever elemental silver may be in it,
which will not be extracted by thiosulfate. If you think there might
be enough to worry about, you could use Farmer's reducer to
bleach the silver and convert it to the silver-thiosulfate
complex or whatever the heck we get in our fixer.

That makes more sense although elemental silver is no load
on the fixer.
Elemental silver? You're back to NASA and gamma rays with
that one. Or maybe you've taken the x-ray check at an airport.
I'd hope the unexposed emulsions I'm testing are free of elemental
silver for all practical purposes. Dan

 

[removed account4]

Hi,
What to do with used fixer seems to be the most asked, and debated question, next to purple negatives on the web. It's very simple to deal with and you don't have to buy a silver recovery unit. Just dump it in your neighbors yard. Hold on...Just kidding !. A local place that I buy some chemicals from, and they do film processing there said I could bring them the used fixer. They will dump it in their silver recovery unit. There you have it. I did the right thing for the enviroment, and they get a bit of silver. Every one is happy....

Jennifer

jennifer: none of the local labs or stores that sell photo-chemistry here in rhode island will accept used photo chemicals. it is unfortunate that they do not, because most folks don't think twice about pouring this stuff down into the sewer system.

rather than being "non-compliant" (here in rhode island if caught, one is fined $10,000/day) for dumping spent fixer down the drain ( and corroding my copper pipes if i happened to live in an older house, and killing off the bacteria that eats sewage in the sewer-plants, or making my garden toxic.)
instead of buying a silver recovery unit ( trickle tanks, copper flashing, evaporation tanks, or steel/iron wool are all cheap), i use a waste hauler that charges me about $40 / 30 gallons of fixer &C that he takes away ... and then i get a check in the mail a few weeks later for $20 for the silver recovered ( 3 years ago ).

 

[dancqu]

A ten thousand/day fine? I'd think that for a commercial lab.
It is generally considered safe to dump small quantities. The
thiosulfate soon oxidizes and the extremly insoluable
silver sulfide is produced. Dan

 

[removed account4]

A ten thousand/day fine? I'd think that for a commercial lab.
It is generally considered safe to dump small quantities. The
thiosulfate soon oxidizes and the extremly insoluable
silver sulfide is produced. Dan

dan -

in providence and areas under the naragansett bay commission it is a 10,000 day fine unless the discharge is less than 3parts/million
here in warwick, you are also fined if you discharge more than 1part/million.

it doesn't matter who you are, if you pollute, you will get nabbed.

 

[Kirk Keyes]

it doesn't matter who you are, if you pollute, you will get nabbed.

THat's extremely unusual to fine non-commercial, residential users of photographic materials. Glad I don't live in Rhode Island...

Can you post us a link to the regulations to support this claim? I'd be interested in reading it.

Kirk - www.keyesphoto.com

 

[Ed Sukach]

I'd like to see the regulations as well. One thing I remember about the Federal regs was that there were two criteria for determining excessive pollution..: Less that 5 PPM AND a total volume of something like .. more than 27 Gallons (??? Don't quote me on that ... I'm not sure of the specific quantity) per month.

Anyway ... I'd also like to see the regulations.