Any good comprehensive guides to dodging and burning? Online or print.

jeztastic · Jun 1, 2014

Hi,

Just getting started in the darkroom - I've spent the weekend making some 9.5x12" prints on Ilford MGIV Satin paper. I've learned a lot, but especially the importance of getting a good negative in the first place!

Anyway, I feel the need to do to the next level. Any recommendations for tutorials on dodging and burning? The real basics - given I've never seen anyone do it, and some things which may seem obvious I have no idea how to do.

I'm happy to get info from anywhere - books, youtube, courses, blogs...

Many thanks,

Jez

Blighty · Jun 1, 2014

jeztastic said:
I'm happy to get info from anywhere - books, youtube, courses, blogs...

...and, of course, dear old APUG

paul_c5x4 · Jun 1, 2014

Ilford do a basic introductory guide called "Ilford Multigrade Papers: A manual for the darkroom" - Catalogue number: 192 7328

If you can find a copy, "The Photographer's Master Printing Course" by Tim Rudman (ISBN 1 85732 407 2) is well worth getting - It covers the basics of dodging & burning as well as advanced topics such has compositing multiple negatives.

If you find yourself up in these parts, I'd be happy to give you a quick intro to some of this stuff.

cliveh · Jun 1, 2014

My advice would be to try and avoid this for a few years.

removed account4 · Jun 1, 2014

hi jez

not sure if you will find a comprehensive guide ...
i can tell you what i do
but it might not be what you will do ...
it takes a sheet of paper or 2 ( maybe a few more after that ) ...

i learned from someone who was taught in the 1920s/1930s

find the base exposure ...
i cut back a few seconds ... and stop down half a stop, maybe ..
then use your hands to burn in what needs to be burned in ...
you can do it in layers, since the light is less but slowly add light to
the areas you need by moving your hands, making shapes with your fingers
and whatever you need to do ... put it in the developer and see how it looks ..
don't forget you didn't dodge the stuff you wanted to dodge
so you keep track of what you did burn-wise but while you are laying down
the initial exposure you dodge out the parts that were too dark .. .. again with your hands
if that means stop down to where you were when you burned in, so you have enough time to dodge
do that, its ok ... don't forget when you stop down change the time ... so if you stop down a whole stop double
your initial exposure ... then put the lens back up half a stop if you want to avoid the math to figure out
what your burn times will be

so you have 2 test prints now ... maybe you are close, maybe you are far ?
sometimes you will end up printing something totally different than you expected ... that's ok

have fun and don't forget, there are as many ways to burn+dodge as there are people doing it ..
john

removed account4 · Jun 1, 2014

Michael R 1974 said:
Most instructional books, including the old Time Life series will give you some basics. Ansel Adams's book "The Print" is also excellent, and most libraries will have a copy. Stick with books for now. The internet has a lot of bad info.

bad info on burning and dodging ?

its just selectively adding more or less light ...
how is there bad info ? its pretty basic-stuff.

jeztastic · Jun 1, 2014

Thanks for the advice everyone...

If you find yourself up in these parts, I'd be happy to give you a quick intro to some of this stuff.

Where is 'these parts' Paul? I have yet to update my profile properly, but I am in Canterbury, Kent.

cliveh said:
My advice would be to try and avoid this for a few years.

Care to elaborate?

cliveh · Jun 1, 2014

jeztastic said:
Thanks for the advice everyone...

Where is 'these parts' Paul? I have yet to update my profile properly, but I am in Canterbury, Kent.

Care to elaborate?

Yes, if you select the correct exposure for a given lighting ratio with the correct lens rendition (all other factors such as development being OK) then dodging and shading should not be necessary.

Sirius Glass · Jun 1, 2014

cliveh said:
Yes, if you select the correct exposure for a given lighting ratio with the correct lens rendition (all other factors such as development being OK) then dodging and shading should not be necessary.

Not necessarily. Some photographs need burning and dodging. If you were right then Ansel Adams would have straight printed everyone of his negatives. g\Guess what?!? He never did.

jeztastic · Jun 1, 2014

cliveh said:
Yes, if you select the correct exposure for a given lighting ratio with the correct lens rendition (all other factors such as development being OK) then dodging and shading should not be necessary.

Not necessary, but fun perhaps! Let's not allow the thread to be hijacked - does anyone have any favourite tools or tricks?

eddie · Jun 1, 2014

Make sure you have the proper tools.
For dodging, I have snipped metal hangers, with various sized /shaped pieces of mat board (black on bottom-white on top), which I tape to the hanger, as the dodge requires. For burning, the same black/white mat board, with various sized holes cut in them, as the burn requires. The reason for the white top is it's easier to see what is being dodged/burned on the top of the board. The black bottom helps prevent light from reflecting back on the paper. I don't buy it that way, but paint one side of mat board I've cut from windows. I've also painted the metal on the hanger.

Dodging/burning are important tools in making photographs. Not only for corrections, but their use can help emphasize/minimize areas of the print for expressive purposes. The sooner you learn to use them, the better your prints will get.

Bill Burk · Jun 1, 2014

cliveh,

I also recommend jeztastic learn other techniques first, but my reason why is different than yours.

You've taken quite an unorthodox view that if the negative is good you won't need it, so I'm sure you expect some feedback...

Your photographs are built on a solid foundation of vision and composition and sensitivity to light. This makes it less likely that you would need dodging and burning.

I use dodging and burning as an extension of the test strip. When I look at the test strip to plan my final print, areas which aren't on the step of the strip that I have finally chosen for my base exposure... get some dodging and burning. The result is that I get what I want on the print, I definitely knew I wanted it, and the effect is barely noticeable.

jeztastic,

I would recommend that you learn to use test strips before taking that next step. Learn to know what grade of paper is correct for your negative first. Dodging and burning can be done badly, and if you try too soon you might get bad results and get a sour feeling about the value of the techniques. When you are ready, look for posts by Bob Carnie.

It should be as much fun as making flying eagle shadows on the screen of a slide show...

Bill Burk · Jun 1, 2014

jeztastic,

Expose your film well, I use 250 for 400 speed film. This lets me dodge a shadow and make it look like it was part of the main subject. If you use the rated speed, the shadow will be black nothing - and a dodge would be gray nothing.

Reinhold makes a set of tools that I admire and would get if I hadn't already made my own fine set like eddie did.

jeztastic · Jun 2, 2014

Good advice all.

Bill Burk - Yes, good point, no point dodging to find nothing there.

It should be as much fun as making flying eagle shadows on the screen of a slide show...

Sounds pretty fun to me!

I use dodging and burning as an extension of the test strip. When I look at the test strip to plan my final print, areas which aren't on the step of the strip that I have finally chosen for my base exposure... get some dodging and burning. The result is that I get what I want on the print, I definitely knew I wanted it, and the effect is barely noticeable.

I use test strips to get the grade and exposure I want. I try and test across areas of highlight and shadow to establish the look I want. However, I have found it much harder to balance the mid tones. For example, a featureless sky or an expanse of water or mud can make a print look underexposed although I get the highlights and shadows OK. Are you saying that you would get the right exposure for the middle greys and then burn and dodge for highlight and shadow?

Paul Howell · Jun 2, 2014

Ansal Adams' Examples: The Making of 40 Photographs, he walks through how he burned and dodged each of the 40 photos.

ROL · Jun 2, 2014

Making a Fine Art Print

removed account4 · Jun 2, 2014

Michael R 1974 said:
Sorry, but yes, plenty of bad info on everything from filtration to technique, test prints, on and on.

might as well suggest people shouldn't ask questions here on apug because
they may get bad answers ?

like with anything there is good and bad .. and plenty of both

Bill Burk · Jun 2, 2014

Thanks ROL,

Your instructions are a good place to start, and it's generous of you to offer it online...

jeztastic said:
I use test strips to get the grade and exposure I want. I try and test across areas of highlight and shadow to establish the look I want. However, I have found it much harder to balance the mid tones. For example, a featureless sky or an expanse of water or mud can make a print look underexposed although I get the highlights and shadows OK. Are you saying that you would get the right exposure for the middle greys and then burn and dodge for highlight and shadow?

I wasn't thinking of dodging highlight and burning shadow because you found a treatment for middle gray that you like but can't get the rest of the print balanced. I was thinking of a case where everything looks good at a certain grade and exposure... except for one place you wish could match another patch on the test strip...

Here is an example, 400 speed film shot at 64, so I have plenty of shadow detail (there's a long story why I picked 64 - I usually shoot at 250 now). The lower-left trees were pitch black on a straight print. When I dodged them they came out looking natural.

Bill Burk · Jun 2, 2014

jnanian said:
might as well suggest people shouldn't ask questions here on apug because
they may get bad answers ?

like with anything there is good and bad .. and plenty of both

I sometimes have to remember... People come here for answers... We owe it to them.

ic-racer · Jun 3, 2014

cliveh said:
Yes, if you select the correct exposure for a given lighting ratio with the correct lens rendition (all other factors such as development being OK) then dodging and shading should not be necessary.

That is true but most people think the images (if of a long tonal scale subject) look like they lack contrast because one needs to print on low contrast paper, or under develop the negatives to get the entire tonal scale of the negative to 'fit' on the paper without dodging or burning. What Ansel and others popularized is printing on higher contrast paper (or increased film development) and then dodging and burning and/or bleaching to to bring the light and dark sections back to proper regional values (but now with improved tonal separation, or 'local contrast'). This is a real art, takes years to master, and was frequently learned by apprenticeship (think John Sexton). Many people don't have a clue about it.

removed account4 · Jun 3, 2014

Bill Burk said:
I sometimes have to remember... People come here for answers... We owe it to them.

yup

AndreasT · Jun 3, 2014

Take a look at good photographs in an exhibition. Some have their own style and print dark, some hard or soft etc. However looking at good prints shows you where you are and if you on the right route.

ajmiller · Jun 3, 2014

I came across this the other day.

Dead Link Removed

removed account4 · Jun 3, 2014

i would imagine the OP will have to decide what is good and what is bad for him/herself.

removed account4 · Jun 3, 2014

michael

let the person reading or viewing make up their own mind
without you making it up for them...

Any good comprehensive guides to dodging and burning? Online or print.

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