Anxious for any news about the return of ((ORWO))

[laingsoft]

If you expect these potential new colour films to be cheaper than the current cheap colour films from Fujifilm and Kodak (like C200 and ColorPlus 200), then you will be disappointed.
Because InovisCoat cannot undercut these Fujifilm and Kodak prices. It is impossible, both from a technological and economic perspective ( I have visited that factory).
Fujifilm and Kodak have technological cost advantages like one-pass coating and own, huge confectioning capabilities, and economical advantages like much better economies of scale because of demand and production of many million units of their cheap films p.a..
InovisCoat cannot compete with that. They of course know that and don't want to compete in that very difficult and competitive market segment.

And one general assassment about this topic:
Fujicolor C200 is currently the cheapest colour film here in Europe. In Germany I pay 3.99€ for one film. If I consider inflation, which is the only economically correct way of calculation of prices over long time periods, then I pay less today compared to 30 years ago. Film processing and RA-4 prints are also cheaper here than 30 years ago.
And if we look at the film revival globally, we see that there is a huge increase in film demand not only in the industrialized countries, but also in the developing and NIC countries with significantly less income per capita.. For example there is a strong boom in film photography in low(er) income countries like Vietnam, Thailand, Indonesia, Phillipines, Georgia, Russia, China etc..
That is a clear indicator that at least the cheaper film types are affordable for film photographers in these low(er) income countries.

Best regards,
Henning

Henning, Wouldn't you agree that access to the required chemistry is a bigger hurdle than confectioning / slitting and perfing the webs? Kodak and Fuji have the entire synthesis locked up and nobody is making the dye couplers, interlayer scavengers, or even the sensitizers anymore. Slitting/perfing and confectioning webs is something that quite a few facilities that specialize in r2r processing would be able to do, granted they'd need to retool. Battery manufacturing requires much of the same reel 2 reel tooling that film companies used to use, ditto with solar panels.

 

[AgX]

That the acquisition of emulsion elements at economical prices is decisive on starting a colour film production, is long known fact inside the industry.

The founding of one manufacturer even depended on such knowledge.

 

[Henning Serger]

Henning, Wouldn't you agree that access to the required chemistry is a bigger hurdle than confectioning / slitting and perfing the webs?

You are completely underestimating the complexity of 135 and 120 film confectioning on an industrial scale = means producing millions of units p.a.. That is the point here: Kodak and Fujifilm have the capability to produce these volumes and therefore can benefit from cost advantages by positive economies of scale. .
But InovisCoat has not any capabilities in that regard by their own. And none of their potential industry partners for confectioning has free capacities for a multi-million unit volume per year. Such free confectioning capacities simply do not exist in the photo industry!
Even Kodak and Fujifilm have meanwhile severe confectioning capacity problems. That is the current big bottleneck and the main reason why several amateur color negative films are regularly sold out. Demand is surpassing production capacity. That is why the big two have to invest in increased converting capacity.

Kodak and Fuji have the entire synthesis locked up and nobody is making the dye couplers, interlayer scavengers, or even the sensitizers anymore.

That is wrong as such a general statement.
And I know the costs for the R&D of a new colour film on the technology level of e.g. InovisCoat or Film Ferrania. These costs are indeed significantly lower than the costs for a new, fully automated state-of-the art 135 confectioning line like the ones Kodak, Fujifilm, Ilford and Foma are using. The Kodak, Fuji and Ilford line have an output of about 1 fully packaged 135 film per second (!). That is very complex and sophisticated machinery.

Slitting/perfing and confectioning webs is something that quite a few facilities that specialize in r2r processing would be able to do, granted they'd need to retool.

See above. The problem is the capacity for a mass volume production.

Best regards,
Henning

 

[mohmad khatab]

If you expect these potential new colour films to be cheaper than the current cheap colour films from Fujifilm and Kodak (like C200 and ColorPlus 200), then you will be disappointed.
Because InovisCoat cannot undercut these Fujifilm and Kodak prices. It is impossible, both from a technological and economic perspective ( I have visited that factory).
Fujifilm and Kodak have technological cost advantages like one-pass coating and own, huge confectioning capabilities, and economical advantages like much better economies of scale because of demand and production of many million units of their cheap films p.a..
InovisCoat cannot compete with that. They of course know that and don't want to compete in that very difficult and competitive market segment.

And one general assassment about this topic:
Fujicolor C200 is currently the cheapest colour film here in Europe. In Germany I pay 3.99€ for one film. If I consider inflation, which is the only economically correct way of calculation of prices over long time periods, then I pay less today compared to 30 years ago. Film processing and RA-4 prints are also cheaper here than 30 years ago.
And if we look at the film revival globally, we see that there is a huge increase in film demand not only in the industrialized countries, but also in the developing and NIC countries with significantly less income per capita.. For example there is a strong boom in film photography in low(er) income countries like Vietnam, Thailand, Indonesia, Phillipines, Georgia, Russia, China etc..
That is a clear indicator that at least the cheaper film types are affordable for film photographers in these low(er) income countries.

Best regards,
Henning

I will never be disappointed,
Perhaps in the near term, prices will be high. Yes that's right .
But in the long run ,,, I dare you. Inevitably, prices will decrease after the production lines are modernized and gradually increased by slow movement, similar to Jeff Bezos's philosophy.
Dear Sir.
- Perhaps the prices in the field of photography will not move much towards a decline in the short term, but in the long term ,, I fully believe that they will definitely decrease ,, I am not the important, but my children are the most important ,, when the prices decrease, my children will benefit and this is my dream And my goal.

The State of Kuwait is characterized by having the highest per capita income in the world, and a Kuwaiti government employee gets twice as much as an American government employee of the same job rank.
However, in 1996, after computers began to spread a little, the price of a personal computer was so great that if a government employee wanted to buy a computer for his home and his children, he had to obtain a (soft loan) with the guarantee of his job and this He is required to bring to the computer dealer a salary certificate approved by the government agency in which he works, and after that he proceeds to obtain a soft loan from one of the intermediary financial offices that will deduct a monthly installment of his salary from the source monthly.
Now: The story is completely different. Computer prices have decreased in a way that no human would expect on the planet, and it is also a very complex industry that needs many components.
How was this done ,,,,, This does not matter ,,,,, This does not concern us here ,,, the fine details do not concern us ..
All that concerns us is this: With this crazy increase in demand, it creates new companies and new players in that industry.
- You can think, before 1996, as was the number of companies producing personal computers and now you can make a census on the number of companies that work in that industry now and compare.
Yes ,, the processor companies are only two companies, Intel and AMD ,, that's okay, but they were enough to cover the needs of the whole planet in terms of processors.

 

[Raghu Kuvempunagar]

Saw this in a comment to a Facebook post by ORWO Film:

"We are currently manufacturing colour photographic film. There is a strong rumour that ORWO is experimenting with Colour Cine film. We can’t confirm or deny this, at this stage!"

"We are actively buying support companies, not selling them. This even includes a UK chemical company. As a consequence of this vision — we now have the ability to process black and white, and to process colour, in our own labs. We also have the ability to make our own film prints and we will soon be announcing many exciting things."

Not sure if this is Orwo's official Facebook page, maybe somebody like @Henning Serger can confirm.

 

[mohmad khatab]

Yes correct
In reality, however, there is no concrete, practical evidence that this is true.
There is an ancient Egyptian wisdom that says (tomorrow we sit on the floor and listen to the noise) ,,
Of course, I do not know how to translate that popular wisdom that dates back to the Pharaonic era, but its meaning is that days are sufficient to reveal the truth, whether they are liars or truthful
They sent me a response on Facebook with a photo attached.

 

[mohmad khatab]

This is what the man said.

orwofilm
ORWO is a German company focusing relentless on quality, innovation and integrity. ORWO now has a global footprint and many exciting new products and potentials.

For the first time this century, the IP and know how of Agfa Motion Pictures, and its spin off ORWO was united under one common shareholder. This brought together IC Investments, InovisCoat, FilmoTec and a range of other companies, underneath one banner.

The vision is big - bring back high quality analogue films - for photographic and for cinema. For use in cameras, on film sets and in cinemas. For use in archiving - of data, paper and audio visual. ORWO now demonstrably has the best film stock in the world for archiving, for black and white and for sound reproduction. It is now passionately investing in R+D to bring further innovations into this important cultural space.

The new German company is very active in the film space and is obsessed with improving every aspect of the film value chain. It’s motto - make film, not video. Welcome to the analogue revolution.


I responded to him in the Egyptian sarcastic manner, until I brought from him all the information in his possession and told you the following.


mohmadd.khattab
There are some photographic experts who say that you are lying about the story that you are going to produce a color negative film.
They say that you do not have the technical equipment (coating machine) that allows you to produce film color (positive or negative).
And these experts may mean to accuse you of being liars and fraudsters.
What is your practical response to these accusations?
Are you crooks and liars or are they honest and truthful,
If you are honest and honest, where is the practical evidence that proves your ability to produce a film color?
Where is your trial production.
When can your products be put up for sale to the public?

An hour later, the man answered the following response.

orwofilm
@mohmadd.khattab Thank you for your passionate enquiry. We own InovisCoat (http://www.inoviscoat.de/en/) - famous for the highest quality and precision of coated products. At the heart of our technical capabilities is our unique multilayer coating technology. At our facility in Monnheim we operate a world class coating machine and have coated and continue to coat many colour films, for clients around the world. In terms of our new ORWO stocks, these are not yet available. Special things, take special time. Thank you for your interest.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

My personal view:
If there is a designated employee to answer the public's inquiries, then this is aware that they are not liars.
This means that they know what to do and do what they say exactly?

 

[Ernst-Jan]

mohmadd.khattab
There are some photographic experts who say that you are lying about the story that you are going to produce a color negative film.
They say that you do not have the technical equipment (coating machine) that allows you to produce film color (positive or negative).
And these experts may mean to accuse you of being liars and fraudsters.
What is your practical response to these accusations?
Are you crooks and liars or are they honest and truthful,
If you are honest and honest, where is the practical evidence that proves your ability to produce a film color?
Where is your trial production.
When can your products be put up for sale to the public?

What you say is what you probably want to read, not what is written in this thread..

 

[relistan]

What you say is what you probably want to read, not what is written in this thread..

He is relying on machine translation and I don't think it works perfectly when filtered through twice. Give him the benefit of the doubt.

 

[Henning Serger]

Not sure if this is Orwo's official Facebook page, maybe somebody like @Henning Serger can confirm.

Well, it is. But as I already said above: No real news here. All what is said in their facebook and instagram channels is quite well known publicly/officially and was discussed here on photrio for months in the threads in the "Industry News" subforum. The discussion at that time started with their official statement last year that InovisCoat and FilmoTec now have the same owners and are working now in close cooperation. That they intend to widen their product programme is also nothing new.
This whole thread here was unnecessary (and in the wrong subforum anyway). And denying the science/physics of film R&D and production, and the laws of economics and replacing them by unrealistic dreams and wishful thinking is of cource not helping at all, too.
We just have to be patient and wait to see what the future will bring.
Keep calm, carry on.

Best regards,
Henning

 

[mohmad khatab]

He is relying on machine translation and I don't think it works perfectly when filtered through twice. Give him the benefit of the doubt.

I apologize for the bad english.
But the general meaning of dialogue implies that something is happening behind the scenes.

 

[mohmad khatab]

Well ,, I will bring you a representative of the company and its spokesperson, called Mr. James, and all skeptics can ask him about all the economic and physical questions ,,, far from dreams ,,
Let us see who provides the arguments and proofs about the validity of his position and the know-how that he has made regarding the matter.

 

[relistan]

I will teach you a lesson we will never forget ,, I swear to you ..

Hey man, nobody is attacking you. I think translation is getting in the way. @Henning Serger was pointing out that what you quoted from ORWO and what he said originally are both true. You quoted ORWO saying they are making color film. They are: Lomography color film. This was discussed above. They said they have the capability to do it. Henning already said that. They said there is a rumor they are making color cinema film, but they refused to comment. Everything Henning said is also true with everything they said.

That being said... you have gone way too far with some of your reply. More than worth an apology. Particularly over invoking the holocaust.

 

[Agulliver]

Has nobody reported Mohamed Khatab to the mods for these outrageous attacks? Over in the ACUG area he called me an "evil man" and a liar for trying to help him with information regarding short film making. At the time I thought perhaps it was a language thing but looking at his behaviour since I see little or no positive interaction and a lot of insults and even threats.

 

[MattKing]

The attacks were brought to my attention after the moderators edited them out. If I had seen them, I would have immediately reported them.

 

[pentaxuser]

The attacks were brought to my attention after the moderators edited them out. If I had seen them, I would have immediately reported them.

Well at least that explains why relistan used a quote from the said member which I searched for and couldn't find and was beginning to wonder if relistan has misquoted and what exactly led up to the very aggressive reply from Mohamed
That's the problem when something is cut out for what may be good reasons. It leaves some people who only occasionally check on a threads progress puzzled as to what drew the response it got but I admit I don't have a ready made answer as to what the ideal solution is

pentaxuser

 

[Nodda Duma]

Agree.. personal attacks are unacceptable and reflect very poorly on the person giving them.. Regardless of whether they have been edited and deleted away. Very dishonorable.

 

[cmacd123]

any case, the status seems to be that a VC firm has been buying up bits and pieces that are connected with film manufacture. {This brought together IC Investments, InovisCoat, FilmoTec and a range of other companies, underneath one banner. }

Now if this will bring us a new source of film, or just more market hype, remains to be seen. we will have to assume that the game plans of Both Filmotec and InovisCoat have been impacted by the investors, so that we can no longer rely on them following the game plans that they have previously stated. I am agreeing with Henning that wait and see is the only sensible course. I have no doubt that Henning will also be watchig very closely to see what is going to happen (if anything)

FWIW, I will follow that facebook page.

 

[AgX]

Here is quite some misinformation.

At least the connection of Inoviscoat to those "new" investors reaches back years ago.

 

[laingsoft]

Here is quite some misinformation.

At least the connection of Inoviscoat to those "new" investors reaches back years ago.

If I'm remembering correctly, the ownership of the filmotec/inoviscoat and lomo are all family

 

[relistan]

That's the problem when something is cut out for what may be good reasons. It leaves some people who only occasionally check on a threads progress puzzled as to what drew the response it got but I admit I don't have a ready made answer as to what the ideal solution is

There were accusations and personal attacks and threats against a member of this forum who absolutely did not deserve them. They needed to be removed because they were making untrue statements about said person. (it was not me)

 

[relistan]

Here is quite some misinformation.

At least the connection of Inoviscoat to those "new" investors reaches back years ago.

I believe all the references here are to this: https://www.northchannelbank.de/en/...m-material-producers-inoviscoat-and-filmotec/

Which is dated August 2020. So even if they are not entirely new investors, _something_ has changed and the press release from the bank seems to indicate an intention at least. I do not imply that has any connection to a color print or cinema film of any kind.

 

[AgX]

What I meant is that there is even a prelude to this going further back in time. But let's leave it at this

 

[AgX]

Back to our field, which is predominantly still film in amateur bulk. So far the only change at Filmotec, a few months ago, was that they state on their site to do direct sale/retail, but they did not even publish a pricelist up to now.

Thus so far on everything else concerning this matter there only is rumour. So let's wait and see...

 

[Disconnekt]

Studio C41 did a small article on ORWO recently: https://studioc41.net/2021/03/17/orwo-is-now-american/amp/?__twitter_impression=true

And Orwo said themselves on twitter that they are not american owned: https://www.twitter.com/ORWOfilm/status/1376820885605203969