Ansco Supreme Film: What can you tell me?

Donald Qualls · Apr 27, 2021

The syrup uses the same dilutions and times as the new "runny" HC-110. You do need to stir a good bit to be sure it's all dissolved, but a couple minutes with a stirring rod or paddle will usually do it. HC-110 can be yellowish, but I wouldn't expect that with dilution weaker than B (1+31).

Fixer turning yellow suggests a lot of stop bath carried over (indicator in the acidic fixer), shouldn't have anything to do with the developer unless you skipped the stop bath entirely.

TheGreatGasMaskMan · Apr 27, 2021

Donald Qualls said:
The syrup uses the same dilutions and times as the new "runny" HC-110. You do need to stir a good bit to be sure it's all dissolved, but a couple minutes with a stirring rod or paddle will usually do it. HC-110 can be yellowish, but I wouldn't expect that with dilution weaker than B (1+31).

Fixer turning yellow suggests a lot of stop bath carried over (indicator in the acidic fixer), shouldn't have anything to do with the developer unless you skipped the stop bath entirely.

nope. I use distilled water as stop bath. it's slowly reverting back. I've kind of had this happen before where film ejected extra dye during the fixing stages but that cleared quickly.

I developed at dil. B.

also, I just did a mixing test with the circular one, and that one also turned yellow.
or maybe I developed it too cold? who knows.

wish ultrafine 12 ex. rolls were available, then I could do another test soon.

TheGreatGasMaskMan · Apr 27, 2021

basically, not mixing properly would result in under development? and that's why my fixer turned yellow?

TheGreatGasMaskMan · Apr 27, 2021

and my fixer will still be OK? I just mixed this batch.

Donald Qualls · Apr 27, 2021

Dye in the fixer will do no harm. I've got both developer and fixer with blue/green dye that I've used for months. The yellow developer may just be the color of the HC-110 -- what's the expiration date on those bottles? The syrup is virtually immortal in a closed bottle, but the syrup is yellowish -- color of corn oil, roughly. If the syrup is significantly darker than that, it might not have been sealed, hence gotten moisture in the syrup, after which it's subject to oxidation like any developer. Still shouldn't change color, though; it's phenidone based, and phenidone doesn't darken when it oxidizes the way metol and p-aminophenol do.

TheGreatGasMaskMan · Apr 27, 2021

They're kind of a light yellow, like corn syrup. but holding the bottles up to the light they're a bit amber colored, though the circular one is certainly lighter. no dates on either.

TheGreatGasMaskMan · Apr 27, 2021

here they both are.
the circular one has debris in it too.

Donald Qualls · Apr 27, 2021

Those look fine -- like I said, near the color of corn oil. Yellower than corn syrup (my recollection is regular Karo is almost water clear).

The debris shouldn't cause trouble; if there's enough to notice after mixing you could pour the working solution through a filter or fine screen (might not be a bad idea to just get in the habit with that bottle of syrup).

So, the yellow fixer is probably leftover dye from the film (Ultrafine Extreme, you said? I've used precisely one roll of that, 35mm which often has less dye than 120, and paid no attention at all to the color of the solutions), and you noted it was clearing slowly. Faint images may just mean you need to develop longer/warmer or expose more (or both). One test to make is to drop a clip of leader into the beaker after mixing the working solution, but before your start to develop your film; the leader, in the light, should turn black in just a couple minutes. If it takes longer than, say, three minutes, there may be a measurement problem, a problem with your water, syrup still on the bottom of the beaker, etc.

TheGreatGasMaskMan · Apr 27, 2021

Donald Qualls said:
Those look fine -- like I said, near the color of corn oil. Yellower than corn syrup (my recollection is regular Karo is almost water clear).

The debris shouldn't cause trouble; if there's enough to notice after mixing you could pour the working solution through a filter or fine screen (might not be a bad idea to just get in the habit with that bottle of syrup).

So, the yellow fixer is probably leftover dye from the film (Ultrafine Extreme, you said? I've used precisely one roll of that, 35mm which often has less dye than 120, and paid no attention at all to the color of the solutions), and you noted it was clearing slowly. Faint images may just mean you need to develop longer/warmer or expose more (or both). One test to make is to drop a clip of leader into the beaker after mixing the working solution, but before your start to develop your film; the leader, in the light, should turn black in just a couple minutes. If it takes longer than, say, three minutes, there may be a measurement problem, a problem with your water, syrup still on the bottom of the beaker, etc.

No... Kodak Tmax 100. the ultrafine comment was for twelve exposure rolls. Besides, tmax BLEEDS dyes anyway, but the yellow might have been unmixed developer(?). either way, the fixer's back to normal. I'll try the leader test. I've got some excess washi f leader I can use.

I've got it down to two theories- improper stirring, because the water stop bath was also a bit yellow, or wrong temperature (though I measured it out to 67.8 fº which shouldn't be a problem). definitely an under development problem because the lead didn't turn completely black.

also, I use needless syringes to measure my solution, so maybe the debris won't be an issue. I can be very meticulous with my measurement, I don't even like tiny air bubbles in the syringe.

Donald Qualls · Apr 27, 2021

If you had incompletely mixed the syrup, it would have stayed in the mixing beaker, rather than following through the developer and stop into the fixer. Even when thoroughly mixed, Dilutions A and B have a little color to them, but I don't recall seeing it affect the fixer (however, I always used acid stop bath, so if I had yellow fixer I figured it was indicator from the stop bath that carried over).

I haven't used enough TMX to know its quirks -- I use mostly Fomapan under the Arista label, and there the dye (from 120 and sheet sizes, none seen on 35mm) is blue or green, depending how you see color. Doesn't cause any problems in whatever bath it winds up in, and does very slowly clear up.

What time/temp did you use for your TMX, and what EI did you expose it at?

TheGreatGasMaskMan · Apr 27, 2021

Box speed, iso 100. developed for 6 min at 67.8 f.
I've done tmax before in the new stuff and its worked fine.

also, tmax always ejects a purple dye.

TheGreatGasMaskMan · Apr 27, 2021

the square one might be a dud. the lead has been in for over four minutes and has barely changed.
going to test the circular one.
if this fails, I think I might have some more syrups, but they're not at my place.
worst comes to worst, I'll just use my new hc110 on the supreme film.

TheGreatGasMaskMan · Apr 27, 2021

test two is going over better, a different lead turned reasonably dark within two minutes.
I'm going to do another test roll (either another tmax 100 or delta 100) to see how it does.

I'm thinking it's going to need a little bit more time though.

we'll see.

MattKing · Apr 27, 2021

TheGreatGasMaskMan said:
the square one might be a dud. the lead has been in for over four minutes and has barely changed.
going to test the circular one.
if this fails, I think I might have some more syrups, but they're not at my place.
worst comes to worst, I'll just use my new hc110 on the supreme film.

TheGreatGasMaskMan said:
test two is going over better, a different lead turned reasonably dark within two minutes.
I'm going to do another test roll (either another tmax 100 or delta 100) to see how it does.

I'm thinking it's going to need a little bit more time though.

we'll see.

For clarity, are you testing using diluted to working strength HC-110?
The concentrate will not develop film - it needs to have water added to it to work.

TheGreatGasMaskMan · Apr 27, 2021

MattKing said:
For clarity, are you testing using diluted to working strength HC-110?
The concentrate will not develop film - it needs to have water added to it to work.

using dilution B.

I realize I forgot to mention that.

TheGreatGasMaskMan · May 2, 2021

update time once more-
I just ran a 120 delta 100 through the circular container dev, and it actually worked- looks nice and punchy like it should. I'm at least thinking about running a 120 tmax 400 through it just to be double sure.

as for the supreme film, I haven't touched it, but I'm thinking up some locations to burn up some more frames.

TheGreatGasMaskMan · May 8, 2021

OK, second syrup test roll was a success (120 HP5 this time), so I'll run the supreme film whenever I finish it. I'm going to try tomorrow, but if not, it'll be sometime in the next week.

It's going to be a while before I can get it scanned (and even longer before I'll actually be able to post process it), so I'll post some snapshots of the negatives whenever I get the chance.

TheGreatGasMaskMan · May 9, 2021

Final update, unless anyone's got any questions-
I ran the film for fifteen minutes, and fixed for sixteen, and I got a pure black strip.
I'd say live and learn, but I wish I had more to try again.

relistan · May 10, 2021

TheGreatGasMaskMan said:
Final update, unless anyone's got any questions-
I ran the film for fifteen minutes, and fixed for sixteen, and I got a pure black strip.
I'd say live and learn, but I wish I had more to try again.

Bummer! Sorry it didn't turn out. It's always a lottery with these old films.

TheGreatGasMaskMan · May 10, 2021

relistan said:
Bummer! Sorry it didn't turn out. It's always a lottery with these old films.

I feel like it would have worked, I just developed it for too long.
but I've also got a 1951 expired kodak verichrome (not pan) 127 roll that I can also try.

Donald Qualls · May 10, 2021

TheGreatGasMaskMan said:
I've also got a 1951 expired kodak verichrome (not pan) 127 roll that I can also try.

Ah, the beauty of that is you can develop by inspection under red safelight.

Of course, it's probably fogged into oblivion (instead of new ASA 125, you'd be about EI 2-4 by the one stop per decade rule of thumb, slower than that outside midday due to light color), but I've developed film exposed almost that long ago and gotten images (sort of).

TheGreatGasMaskMan · May 10, 2021

Donald Qualls said:
Ah, the beauty of that is you can develop by inspection under red safelight.

Of course, it's probably fogged into oblivion (instead of new ASA 125, you'd be about EI 2-4 by the one stop per decade rule of thumb, slower than that outside midday due to light color), but I've developed film exposed almost that long ago and gotten images (sort of).

unfortunately, I don't have access to a darkroom or a safelight right now.
however... I did develop a previously exposed 116 verichrome for ten minutes in dil. b and I got (heavily fogged) results from that.

I've been shooting the 127 at iso 6, but I keep forgetting that I have it, as I'm only shot five of the twelve frames.

Donald Qualls · May 10, 2021

Two things that might improve your results with film that old: develop cold (50F is a good aiming point), and add benzotriazole. I don't have the link handy (I'm at work, it's on my home computer) but there's a page out there on rescuing badly fogged film that's based around these two factors. Of course, it helps to have more than one roll (like a partial bulk roll of 35mm, for instance).

TheGreatGasMaskMan · May 10, 2021

yea... wish I had more, like when I was trying to figure out how to do these films-
https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/what-are-these-films.177208/page-2#post-2311534

John Shriver · Nov 20, 2022

Ansco Supreme has some interesting dyes in the emulsion and base. I have vintage developed rolls, and the base is tan.

Ansco Supreme Film: What can you tell me?

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