Ansco Supreme Film: What can you tell me?

TheGreatGasMaskMan · Jan 21, 2021

Today, I picked up a 1951 expired 35mm Ansco Supreme film. My questions are the following:
What was the original ISO?
How should I process this? (I've got hc110, but can mix up some d76 if needed).
Anyone know any historical anecdotes?

Also, my limited research indicates this might even be nitrate film. who knows?

Donald Qualls · Jan 21, 2021

Try looking here. The original box speed was old ASA, which was doubled (for most films) around 1960, but offsetting that, you've almost certainly lost at least three stops to age fog.

Nitrate film was made until the early 1950s, and stocks that weren't nitrate were usually prominently labeled "Safety Film" -- if yours isn't so labeled, and hasn't gone to acidic goo or caught fire yet, you can probably still process it. I had a roll of that sort a while back -- found film someone sent me -- and it was okay (and will be, the degradation is mainly a problem when stored in airtight cans).

Old HC-110 (syrup) would be my top choice for film that old -- I don't know if the new low viscosity version has the same anti-fog properties.

Paul Howell · Jan 21, 2021

Kodak labeled later films Safety Film, not sure is ANSCO did. If it is a nitrate film in addition to fog it might be brittle. be careful loading into a camera, to be on the safe side I would use a motor drive or winder, ANSO Supreme was a mid speed film, ASA was likely 80 or 100 so one drop of speed per decade, shoot at ISO 10 and see what you get.

TheGreatGasMaskMan · Jan 21, 2021

OK, just unsealed the canister, and the film is still in one piece, and not really brittle. There were in fact instructions in the canister, I may scan it and share it when I have time.

Paul Howell said:
Kodak labeled later films Safety Film, not sure is ANSCO did. If it is a nitrate film in addition to fog it might be brittle. be careful loading into a camera, to be on the safe side I would use a motor drive or winder, ANSO Supreme was a mid speed film, ASA was likely 80 or 100 so one drop of speed per decade, shoot at ISO 10 and see what you get.

In my experience, BW film only requires one stop per two decades, so at 70 some years, I'd say only 3 1/3 stops are needed, so roughly iso 20, maybe 16.

TheGreatGasMaskMan · Jan 21, 2021

Donald Qualls said:
Try looking here. The original box speed was old ASA, which was doubled (for most films) around 1960, but offsetting that, you've almost certainly lost at least three stops to age fog.

Nitrate film was made until the early 1950s, and stocks that weren't nitrate were usually prominently labeled "Safety Film" -- if yours isn't so labeled, and hasn't gone to acidic goo or caught fire yet, you can probably still process it. I had a roll of that sort a while back -- found film someone sent me -- and it was okay (and will be, the degradation is mainly a problem when stored in airtight cans).

Old HC-110 (syrup) would be my top choice for film that old -- I don't know if the new low viscosity version has the same anti-fog properties.

I pretty much have the new liquid stuff, recently did a found 116 verichrome (not pan), and got a seriously fogged film, though there were results.
I do have some old hc110 syrups intended for experimental use, but haven't tried them.

Donald Qualls · Jan 22, 2021

Even the legendary syrup can't completely eliminated fog -- the one roll of nitrate film I've done was so fogged the images were partially reversed, even in HC-110. Still, it does better than most other developers.

TheGreatGasMaskMan · Jan 22, 2021

Donald Qualls said:
Even the legendary syrup can't completely eliminated fog -- the one roll of nitrate film I've done was so fogged the images were partially reversed, even in HC-110. Still, it does better than most other developers.

any dev time recommendations? I'm not going to use the film until spring or summer, so I'll have a chance to test some old hc110.

Paul Howell · Jan 22, 2021

Maybe a divided developer, Diafine is likely too expensive for a one off roll, but, divided D76, one of Berry Thornton's, or Ilford D3. Shoot at double the ISO you plan 3mints in A and 3 in B, no stop bath, fix and see what you get.

Donald Qualls · Jan 22, 2021

TheGreatGasMaskMan said:
any dev time recommendations? I'm not going to use the film until spring or summer, so I'll have a chance to test some old hc110.

Everything was 17 minutes in D-76 1+1 back then, so find an equivalent HC-110 dilution/time and you should be set.

TheGreatGasMaskMan · Jan 22, 2021

This source says it's 17 min at stock solution, but I'll take your word for it.

Also... would a 1946 expired plus x have a similar develop time?

TheGreatGasMaskMan · Jan 22, 2021

Paul Howell said:
Kodak labeled later films Safety Film, not sure is ANSCO did. If it is a nitrate film in addition to fog it might be brittle. be careful loading into a camera, to be on the safe side I would use a motor drive or winder, ANSO Supreme was a mid speed film, ASA was likely 80 or 100 so one drop of speed per decade, shoot at ISO 10 and see what you get.

Earlier today, I realized my ISO calculation was wrong, and I would say ISO 10 would be the appropriate speed for the film. I know I'll be running this through my Nikon FT3. So far, I've only ever had one film break on me, and that was an indated Delta 400.

mshchem · Jan 22, 2021

Brittle, curled, fogged. Before I wasted time I would develop a strip, see if you can read the edge printing. My dear ol Dad shot this stuff. Never seen stuff that curled.

Paul Howell · Jan 22, 2021

TheGreatGasMaskMan said:
Earlier today, I realized my ISO calculation was wrong, and I would say ISO 10 would be the appropriate speed for the film. I know I'll be running this through my Nikon FT3. So far, I've only ever had one film break on me, and that was an indated Delta 400.

If you in manual wind and rewind you should be ok. If its a 36 exposure roll cut off the first few inched beyond the leader develop it to see how much fog you have. I've been given sheets of Trix and Plus from the mid 50s, all were fogged to demax. Saying that I've film from the 30s and 40 that folks got useful negatives from, who knows.

TheGreatGasMaskMan · Jan 22, 2021

Paul Howell said:
If you in manual wind and rewind you should be ok. If its a 36 exposure roll cut off the first few inched beyond the leader develop it to see how much fog you have. I've been given sheets of Trix and Plus from the mid 50s, all were fogged to demax. Saying that I've film from the 30s and 40 that folks got useful negatives from, who knows.

Unfortunately, it's a 20 exposure roll, fortunately my ft3 is only manual.

Donald Qualls · Jan 24, 2021

TheGreatGasMaskMan said:
This source says it's 17 min at stock solution, but I'll take your word for it.

Also... would a 1946 expired plus x have a similar develop time?

You're correct, that was a stock solution time. I was posting from memory, while at work (though I don't now recall where I got that information, that was me in that photo.net thread).

As I understand it, B&W films had the same kind of process standardization in the '40s and '50s that C-41 has now -- that is, they all took the same development. Probably a good thing the Internet didn't exist yet when that changed, else we'd still have people arguing over where it was or wasn't a good thing for Verichrome Pan to have a different dev time from Tri-X, or Tri-X to have a different time from HP4.

TheGreatGasMaskMan · Apr 12, 2021

Alright, it's been four months, and I just loaded the film a few hours ago.

I'm thinking I'm going to use some hc110 syrup to develop it, but I'm also going to need to run a test roll for that as well.

My only issue is when converting d76 stock to hc110b, I got a range of times from 10-15 minutes. I'm thinking I'll do 13.5

wish me luck. going to use the roll to document spring bloom.

Donald Qualls · Apr 13, 2021

HC-110B is usually close to D-76 stock times, but often not quite the same. I wouldn't worry about getting 13:30 as an average from interpolated conversion. Just be prepared to add or subtract 10%.

Also, with old film, try to avoid being above 20C; some of those old emulsions could float right off the base at 25C.

TheGreatGasMaskMan · Apr 13, 2021

I usually develop at 68.4-68.2 F, or a bit lower.

So you're saying I should go the full fifteen minutes?

Donald Qualls · Apr 13, 2021

TheGreatGasMaskMan said:
So you're saying I should go the full fifteen minutes?

No, I'm saying look closely at the contrast on your test roll (you did say something about a test roll?) and be prepared to adjust the time accordingly.

TheGreatGasMaskMan · Apr 13, 2021

Donald Qualls said:
No, I'm saying look closely at the contrast on your test roll (you did say something about a test roll?) and be prepared to adjust the time accordingly.

OK... by test roll I meant run a fresh roll of film (thinking it's going to be a tmax 100), just to make sure the developer works properly.

Donald Qualls · Apr 13, 2021

Aaah. Okay, if you only have one roll of the Ansco Supreme, I'd probably go with the longer developer time. An extra 10% won't hurt anything, especially in HC-110.

TheGreatGasMaskMan · Apr 26, 2021

Update time- just finished the test roll but I’m only halfway through the supreme film. Are these hc110 syrups?
second, if the film doesn't immediately burst into flames when exposed to an open flame (even on a windy day), then it's not nitrate film?

for context, I had a small piece of leader break off when I loaded the film and I tried igniting that.

Donald Qualls · Apr 27, 2021

Yes, the contents of at least that round bottle should be the consistency of maple syrup, if not a little thicker (perhaps more like corn syrup). If the square bottle is the same, you're sitting on a gold mine.

And yes, if you ignite nitrate film, it will burn rapidly with a big flame. If it doesn't do that, it's probably acetate base.

TheGreatGasMaskMan · Apr 27, 2021

OK, just developed the test roll using the square container. I got images, but extremely faint images, and my fixer turned kind of yellow.
so my question is, does the syrup need to be mixed more than the new stuff and/or have different dilutions?
going to have to do some more tests before I run the supreme film.

TheGreatGasMaskMan · Apr 27, 2021

my mix looked like stop bath. maybe that was my issue...?

Ansco Supreme Film: What can you tell me?

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