Ansco 130 - Low value problem

[Thomas Bertilsson]

I was really excited to test the Ansco 130 glycin paper developer to initiate my new darkroom. Enlarging with an Omega Pro-Lab 4x5 enlarger, I've used negatives of all conceivable contrasts and densities, I have used:
1. Fotokemika Varycon
2. Ilford MGIV RC
3. Agfa MCC
4. Agfa MCP
5. Kentmere Bromide
6. Mitsubishi Gekko
7. Kentmere Fineprint VC

This enlarger has a filter tray underneath the lens (which I plan on replacing with one I can put in the condenser housing), but the filters are some unspecified kind, probably Kodak.

The only paper that has been able to yield any kind of decent blacks is the Kentmere Bromide, which of course is a graded paper where no filters are used. The new variables are the Ansco 130, and the filter set for the enlarger.

Has anybody had problems with not obtaining deep, rich blacks with Ansco 130 (like I did with the Fine Art Photo Supply VersaPrint II glycin developer)? Or could it be a filter problem? All above mentioned papers have yielded good blacks in the past, especially the Kentmere Bromide, the Agfa MCC / MCP, and the Ilford. What's going on?

- Thomas

 

[JBrunner]

If your 130 is working correctly it gives very good blacks, some of the best as a matter of fact. Flash a strip of paper and drop it in the developer to see how black and how fast it gets black. If your 130 is fresh, it should be pitch black in about 30 seconds. Also, I'd check your temps, as 130 needs to be 68 to 70, or it doesn't work too good. but it sounds like a filter thing to me.

 

[Bob F.]

I've used Ansco 130 with MGIV and Kentmere Fineprint (and a couple of others) with no problems at all so my guess is either the developer has gone bad or you did not allow enough time in the developer (I use a rule-of-thumb time: 5 to 6 times the first emergence of the shadows on the print).

Having said that, my latest batch suddenly stank eye-wateringly of ammonia while I was mixing it before I got to adding the glycin (bit odd as there does not appear to be any ammonia compounds in the formula) and never darkened paper beyond a dark grey when I tested it. Checked the labels on the chems and all correct...

Anyway, bottom line: if working OK, Ansco 130 is excellent.

Cheers, Bob.

 

[Thomas Bertilsson]

Thanks, it's as I suspected.

Would it be all right to run higher than 68-70*F? I don't have temp control yet.

- Thomas

If your 130 is working correctly it gives very good blacks, some of the best as a matter of fact. Flash a strip of paper and drop it in the developer to see how black and how fast it gets black. If your 130 is fresh, it should be pitch black in about 30 seconds. Also, I'd check your temps, as 130 needs to be 68 to 70, or it doesn't work too good. but it sounds like a filter thing to me.

 

[Jim Noel]

I have little doubt that your filters are faded, especially the magenta ones, and therefore the papers can not produce good D-max.

 

[removed account4]

Thanks, it's as I suspected.

Would it be all right to run higher than 68-70*F? I don't have temp control yet.

- Thomas

hi thomas

glycin LOVES warmer temps - about 73ºF-ish ...

good luck!
john

 

[Will S]

Also use 1:1 or straight. It gets warm at 1:2 and 1:3.

 

[Thomas Bertilsson]

I'll try the 5 to 6 times thing just for the heck of it... Sounds like an interesting technique. I've got to get me a metronome one of these days.

Thanks,

- Thomas

I've used Ansco 130 with MGIV and Kentmere Fineprint (and a couple of others) with no problems at all so my guess is either the developer has gone bad or you did not allow enough time in the developer (I use a rule-of-thumb time: 5 to 6 times the first emergence of the shadows on the print).

Having said that, my latest batch suddenly stank eye-wateringly of ammonia while I was mixing it before I got to adding the glycin (bit odd as there does not appear to be any ammonia compounds in the formula) and never darkened paper beyond a dark grey when I tested it. Checked the labels on the chems and all correct...

Anyway, bottom line: if working OK, Ansco 130 is excellent.

Cheers, Bob.

 

[Thomas Bertilsson]

I think I have a set of Ilford Multigrades lying around. I think I can cut them to fit the condenser housing.

Thanks,

- Thomas

I have little doubt that your filters are faded, especially the magenta ones, and therefore the papers can not produce good D-max.

 

[Thomas Bertilsson]

John,

I'll have to give that a whirl. Day time I work for Honeywell, I'm sure I can get a temperature controller with a remote sensor at a very good rate. I'll keep it around 73*F...

Thanks,

- Thomas

hi thomas

glycin LOVES warmer temps - about 73ºF-ish ...

good luck!
john

 

[Thomas Bertilsson]

Hey Will,

I have been using it at 1:1. Don't mind warm, though...

- Thomas

Also use 1:1 or straight. It gets warm at 1:2 and 1:3.

 

[Harrigan]

GAF 130 can yield excellent blacks however my personal preference is GAF 135 with agfa mcc. I found while running the same image in 130 and 135 and paying close attention to match the highlights, the 135 produced a richer black on agfa mcc. However on ilford mg the 130 produced a touch better black. The 135 also produced a very slightly warmer tone and faster response to selenium with agfa mcc. In the past I ran about 300 prints of the same images across 3 papers, 4 developers and 18 toning combinations and this is what I found. Of course some people could look that the 2 straight prints on the same paper type btwn the 2 different developers, untoned and see the exact opposite or no difference btwn them at all. Personally after running 3 different papers and all those toners in combo with gaf 130 I didn’t find anything special about glycin compared to the other developers (I ran gaf 130, gaf 135, select soft, dektol). Unfortunatly at the time when I was in school I was not pushed to run an amidol developer and I wish I had also done amidol in this test and azo for that matter.

 

[TheFlyingCamera]

I print a lot with Ansco 130 now. As mentioned before, you get beautifully rich blacks with it. The reason for using a glycin-based developer is the very long life of the working strength solution- you can keep it in an open tray for several days without losing oomph.

 

[Harrigan]

I print a lot with Ansco 130 now. As mentioned before, you get beautifully rich blacks with it. The reason for using a glycin-based developer is the very long life of the working strength solution- you can keep it in an open tray for several days without losing oomph.

I didn't know that about gylcin at all. One would assume it would ozidize quickly since it's one of the few power chemicals that quickly oxidize when not in solution. I guess for people printing daily or commercially this long life could be a distinct advantage.

That said I am not new to printing and I didn't find any obvious advantage to glycin producing richer blacks than standard developers. I think it may on certain papers but it does not on the agfa paper I use compared to 135 anyway. I fully expected 130 to give a richer but this did not turn out to be the case for me.

 

[Bob F.]

I've only tested it once so it's not exactly a definitive test, but I found Ansco 130 gave a full Grade 5 on Kentmere Fineprint FB, almost identical to MGIV FB, when I plotted their curves together whereas some people have experienced trouble getting more than a G4 (another test with Ilford Warmtone certainly does not go over G4 on the Fineprint compared to MGIV).

It's worth persevering with to find out what has gone wrong.

Cheers, Bob.

 

[Thomas Bertilsson]

Thanks everybody for the suggestions.

Harrigan, I must say that I'm surprised by your comment. I used to use VersaPrint II from Fine Art Photo Supply a lot, but it's expensive, and who knows what'll happen to that web store in the future. Ansco 130 I could mix up myself if I wanted to. The point is though that with Versa Print, I could continue to keep the print in the developer to increase the density of the low values only, while the highlights remained clean and crisp. Since it's a glycin developer, I expexted the same from the Ansco. But I won't find out until I sort out the temperature problem.

- Thomas

 

[PhotoJim]

The longer development time is quite possibly your solution. Ansco 130 is not particularly fast.

Keep experimenting. I really like it and use it as my preferred developer.

 

[Thomas Bertilsson]

Success at last

I made a headfirst dive into the darkroom when I got home today, because:
A) I was in the mood, knowing my problems stood a good chance of getting resolved.
B) I was anxious to print a couple of negs I'd had a hard time with contrast.

I dug out a box of Ilford MG contrast filters and used them instead of what came with the enlarger. I warmed my chemistry up to 72*F (which proved a challenge because Minnesota basements are not warm these days, but a jug of hot water in the tray kept the temperature up in both developer and fixer).

I was able to get some really nice prints with a couple of different papers, with nice creamy highs along with rich, fat blacks. Attached is a fresh scan of a print I made on Fotokemika Varycon paper, from a TMX / Pyrocat HD neg. I'm very happy with it. Thank you everybody for your generous help. It's a great day in my developing photography path.

- Thomas

 

[JBrunner]

I made a headfirst dive into the darkroom when I got home today, because:
A) I was in the mood, knowing my problems stood a good chance of getting resolved.
B) I was anxious to print a couple of negs I'd had a hard time with contrast.

I dug out a box of Ilford MG contrast filters and used them instead of what came with the enlarger. I warmed my chemistry up to 72*F (which proved a challenge because Minnesota basements are not warm these days, but a jug of hot water in the tray kept the temperature up in both developer and fixer).

I was able to get some really nice prints with a couple of different papers, with nice creamy highs along with rich, fat blacks. Attached is a fresh scan of a print I made on Fotokemika Varycon paper, from a TMX / Pyrocat HD neg. I'm very happy with it. Thank you everybody for your generous help. It's a great day in my developing photography path.

- Thomas

Nice! Are you feeling it was the filters or the temp?

 

[Thomas Bertilsson]

I think it was a combination for sure. The filters even look faded, and the temperature of the chemistry when I printed last was 60*F. When I cranked it today, I got those prints coming out like a hoagie from a toaster oven every time. This is very pleasing! It's like a new world opening up...

Thanks for you help!

- Thom

 

[juan]

I've been able to vary contrast with Ansco 130 by varying the amount of time that I agitate the print in the developer. You might try that, although I don't believe the trick will work with papers incorporating developer. I've also found references to developing for only one minute, however, I have found with most papers I've used that standardizing on two minutes, and varying from there, gives me better results.
juan

 

[Richard Jepsen]

Like others mentioned, 130 does not like temps lower than 20 C. and is slower than other developers. I found 130 provides a tad more tonal separation. If 130 is well used, it stains warm which may or may not look good. 130 can render a zone 4-5 tone lighter than a more active developer while providing rich blacks and detailed whites.

 

[dancqu]

...I don't believe the trick will work
with papers incorporating developer.

Just one. Pin-point just one paper with a
developer incorporated EMULSION and which
can be verified to have same. No hearsay.

Arista EDU Ultra RC Graded paper does have a
DI Emulsion. And the paper's PDF says so. Freestyle
assured me two or three years ago that NONE of their
Graded papers have a DI Emulsion. The EDU Ultra RC
Graded is a recent addition and likely the only
exception. Don't confuse DI supercoats with
DI emulsions. Supercoats are extremely
thin tough films over the emulsion.
Why DI there I don't know.

Testing for an incorporated developer is easy.
Expose a piece of the paper and develope in a
weak solution of sodium carbonate; a good 1/4
teaspoon in a few ounces of water. Sodium
carbonate is the activator in nearly all
print developers. I test each paper
prior to use. Dan