Another Rolleiflex TLR question

campy51 · Dec 7, 2019

I have been on a little buying spree lately with TLR's. I bought a 2.8C with a xenotar lens that was said to have lens separation but turned out to fungus. It's due back today from a bellows repair and cleaning. I just bought 2.8E with a planar lens that has a confirmed lens separation but it's at the early stages around the edge in the lower right side. I plan to shoot a roll and see if it shows up. So my question is if I try to fix the separation can anybody tell me how the lens groups are removed from the barrel on a planar lens? Also if the separation does not effect the photos do I keep the E and use it until the problem gets to a point of poor pictures and then deal with it then? I will need to sell one of them since I don't need 2 of the same camera.

Ian Grant · Dec 7, 2019

How does a Rolleiflex TLR have bellows repair,

How much are you paying for cameras with poor lenses ? Is it worth it unless extremely cheap.

Ian

Alan Gales · Dec 7, 2019

For re gluing lens elements together I would think that you will need some sort of "jig" to hold them in alignment while the glue hardens.

R.Gould · Dec 7, 2019

Never seen a Rolleiflex with a bellows, unless the lenses are in great condition then they are only worth peanuts

Grim Tuesday · Dec 7, 2019

There was a whole thread a few weeks ago about the bellows in a rolleiflex. There really is a cloth bit that expands and contracts within the lens board to block light in some rolleis.

Ian Grant · Dec 7, 2019

R.Gould said:
Never seen a Rolleiflex with a bellows, unless the lenses are in great condition then they are only worth peanuts

The SL66 has bellows and is a Rolleiflex

Ian

shutterfinger · Dec 7, 2019

As Dan Daniel pointed out in post 51 of https://www.photrio.com/forum/threa...-rolleiflex-2-8c-with-lens-separation.171102/ the light seal around the rear lens cell to image box was changed to a short piece of light blocking cloth with metal rings on the ends that moves like a single pleat circular bellows.

R.Gould · Dec 7, 2019

Ian Grant said:
The SL66 has bellows and is a Rolleiflex

Ian

With Rolleiflex I always think of TLR, I have 2, a Automat from 1954 and a T from 1961, and couple of rolleicords, plus of course my Microcord, and they are probably my favorite MF, never gave the SL66 a thought

campy51 · Dec 7, 2019

That was my post and I just received it back from having the bellows repaired and cleaning. The camera I bought with the separation was $375. From the picture he sent me it doesn't look too bad and is a little blueish tint, and from what I am reading most separation only affects the photo when it's bad through out the lens. I am taking a chance that it won't affect the photos but he camera itself looks nice from the pictures. I have bought and sold so many cameras and lenses over the years and I think only once or twice I lost money so if this one doesn't work out I am way ahead of the game. I usually only buy items that I know I can at least re-sell it for what I paid or very close to it. Here is the camera I bought but I made a much lower offer and was accepted.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Rolleiflex...e=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649

btaylor · Dec 7, 2019

I would keep the 2.8E with the small amount of separation. I have a similar 2.8E with separation around the edge of the taking lens. Doesn't seem to affect the pictures I took on the test roll, but I also rarely shoot under f4 anyway. I looked into fixing the separation I wa unable to find anyone to do it. And I dare not try it myself less something goes wrong and it becomes a brick. It's quite a nice example otherwise and takes good pictures.

shutterfinger · Dec 7, 2019

btaylor said:
I would keep the 2.8E with the small amount of separation. I have a similar 2.8E with separation around the edge of the taking lens. Doesn't seem to affect the pictures I took on the test roll, but I also rarely shoot under f4 anyway. I looked into fixing the separation I wa unable to find anyone to do it. And I dare not try it myself less something goes wrong and it becomes a brick. It's quite a nice example otherwise and takes good pictures.

SKGrimes no longer recements lens but has this instruction sheet http://skgrimes.com/library/old-news/old-lenses-can-be-restored-by-re-cementing . UV cured cemented lens require solvent to separate them.
https://www.edmundoptics.com/f/norland-optical-adhesives/11818/
Should not be all that hard to do. (if you are a skilled technician)

campy51 · Dec 7, 2019

shutterfinger said:
SKGrimes no longer recements lens but has this instruction sheet http://skgrimes.com/library/old-news/old-lenses-can-be-restored-by-re-cementing . UV cured cemented lens require solvent to separate them.
https://www.edmundoptics.com/f/norland-optical-adhesives/11818/
Should not be all that hard to do. (if you are a skilled technician)

I saw that, my only concern is removing the elements from the lens barrel so it can be separated. I wish I could see a picture of the lens out of the camera.

shutterfinger · Dec 8, 2019

All large format/medium format lens I have come across were rolled over edge at the front of the barrel with the retainer ring in the rear, what i call the early design as this is seen in older lens, or rounded/rolled over edge at the rear of the barrel with the retainer ring at the aperture end of the cell's barrel. Front cells have the retainer ring at the front of the lens or its outer end. There may be exceptions to this.
The Planar 80mm f2.8 is either a 6 glass Gauss high speed or a 7 glass Gauss design.

campy51 · Dec 12, 2019

I received the 2.8E today and the separation is about 1/8 of an inch around most of the perimiter and was difficult for me to see. If it has any affect on the photos, which I don't think it will, I can always crop it out. The shutter seems accurate according to my phone app. and the overall camera looks nice.

Kino · Dec 12, 2019

campy51 said:
I received the 2.8E today and the separation is about 1/8 of an inch around most of the perimiter and was difficult for me to see. If it has any affect on the photos, which I don't think it will, I can always crop it out. The shutter seems accurate according to my phone app. and the overall camera looks nice.

I don't think you have much to worry about image quality with that little amount...

At least you don't have this problem:

No, that's not the Moon; that's the rear view of a Rolleiflex 3.5 taking lens element. THAT will cause a few problems...

EdSawyer · Dec 13, 2019

The separation won't be a big issue. Fixing separation is not trivial, it doesn't sound like you are equipped for it. The planars in Rolleiflexes are 5-element for the 80/2.8 and 5 or 6 element for the 75/3.5

campy51 · Dec 13, 2019

EdSawyer said:
The separation won't be a big issue. Fixing separation is not trivial, it doesn't sound like you are equipped for it. The planars in Rolleiflexes are 5-element for the 80/2.8 and 5 or 6 element for the 75/3.5

I have never done one but from reading the hardest part is making sure you have some sort of jig to hold the elements lined up after gluing. I wouldn't attempt it until the photos are being affected and I had the proper jig to do it.

campy51 · Dec 15, 2019

Here are a couple of quick shots from the first roll of the camera with the separation. The box was shot wide open. So far it looks pretty good. How exactly do I do a test to see if the separation is going to show up?

Kodachromeguy · Dec 15, 2019

Campy, you will never know if the separation will continue to spread. Consider, it took 6 decades to get this far. I suggest you make the fundamental decision if you want to keep this camera considering what it cost plus the expense of a thorough cleaning and adjusting. If yes, send it off for a cleaning, leave the lens alone, and take great Rolleiflex photographs for the next 6 decades.

campy51 · Dec 15, 2019

Kodachromeguy said:
Campy, you will never know if the separation will continue to spread. Consider, it took 6 decades to get this far. I suggest you make the fundamental decision if you want to keep this camera considering what it cost plus the expense of a thorough cleaning and adjusting. If yes, send it off for a cleaning, leave the lens alone, and take great Rolleiflex photographs for the next 6 decades.

I haven't seen any reason yet to send it off for a cleaning, but I have only shot one roll. Everything seems fine and when and if the separation is a problem I will probably attempt to repair it myself. Is there some sort of test to really bring the separation into play that I can do?

itsdoable · Dec 15, 2019

campy51 said:
...How exactly do I do a test to see if the separation is going to show up?
...Is there some sort of test to really bring the separation into play that I can do?

Can you show us a picture of the separation?

If the separation around the edge is clean, then it will not show up in regular pictures. The lens will still bend light in the same way, but where the lens is separated, there will be a ~4% loss instead of the ~0.4% loss due to internal reflections - basically that surface acts like an uncoated lens. If the separation is dirty (ie: has fungus growth inside), then you may see some artifacts depending on the extent (% blockage).

If the edge separation is significant, you may see the effects in out of focus bokeh ball, which will be slightly irregular due to the attenuation where the separation is. The edge of the bokeh balls correspond with the light rays that originate from the edge of the lens.

campy51 · Dec 15, 2019

If you look straight in on the lens you will not see it, but if you angle your view in various ways you can very faintly see it so I don't think it will photograph well enough unless using a macro lens which I don't have. I am also confident enough that it will be fine I think I am going to sell the Rolleiflex 2.8C that I sent out for a new light baffle and lens and shutter cleaning.

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