Another Mystery to solve!! Turner Reich with Cryptic Aperture scale

jimgalli · Feb 14, 2022

The standard 11X14 TR is present and in fine usable shape, but the main reason I bought it was because of the other scales on the aperture plate.

So! What is the mystery cell set that would be 9.5" combined at f4.5! 12.5" single at f6, and 14" at f6.8. My first thought was that this would have been a casket set that included a Hyperion Diffusion which is in fact a triple convertible also. But after consulting the Gundlach Cat. there is of course no such animal. 9" f4 - has 15" and 21" components. Plus they are f4 combined, not f4.5. The single f4.5 lens from Gundy is the Radar but it is not a convertible.

Nobody gets to sleep until this is solved.

shutterfinger · Feb 14, 2022

From A Lens Collectors Vade Mecum

Page 35 of http://piercevaubel.com/cam/catalogs/1920gundmanlp194.htm
About as close as you'll get. Likely an unadvertised option.

jimgalli · Feb 14, 2022

I've got two of those sets, but whatever this was, it was f4.5 so that rules out Turner Reich anything.

jimgalli · Feb 14, 2022

My dear bride (of 47 years) had a hen party tonight (on valentines day no less!!) and I was banished to the workshop, so I serviced and cla'd the shutter and carefully cleaned the glass surfaces with alcohol and this old lens is ready to ROAR again. 15 is a great length for me on 8X10 as I quickly found back as a learner that a 210 on 4X5 saw much closer to my vision than a 150.

The mystery remains lads. Remember, no sleep until it is solved to my satisfaction!

shutterfinger · Feb 15, 2022

Are those cells original to the shutter?

jimgalli · Feb 15, 2022

Yes, the cells present are the easy ones. Very common 11X14 #6 size Series II Turner Reich lens of 15" - 24" - 36". Also used with #16 Cirkut cameras.
And the shutter is the fore-runner to the common Ilex #4. Sir Steven Grimes.gave the early Ilex shutters a bad reputation but compared to other primitive shutters of the same era I find them very usable. The 1922 catalog advertises this lens in the Acme Universal shutter at $177 which with the inflation calculator becomes; $2839.27! Anyone want it for half the 2021 price?

shutterfinger · Feb 15, 2022

The 1920 catalog list it for $187 in Ilex Universal shutter.
24 rear + 36 front = 15 f7.7
24 rear / shutter opening diameter = f?
36 rear / shutter opening diameter = f?
24 front mounted / entrance pupil with aperture wide open = f?
36 front mounted / entrance pupil with aperture wide open = f?
Will the two cells mount together?

jimgalli · Feb 15, 2022

Gundlach sold it as an f7.5 combination. 24" is f12.5 alone and 35" is f16. Gundlach was pretty loosey goosey with all of their numbers. Everything is approximate. I have no resource to measure actual anything beyond what the aperture dial states. No the two cells cannot mount to each other if that's what you mean. My guess is that this item was a factory special order by someone who had some other lenses they liked and sent them to the factory to be incorporated into a sort of vade mecum set with this shutter and the Gundlach cells. The f 4.5 value at 9.5 inch is limiting. Maybe they had a particularly favored Petzval they wanted to use in the same shutter. 9.5 f4.5 is plausible for a Petzval, and rear group alone would be maybe 14" f6.8. I'm just making stuff up. Since all that remains is the TR I suppose we'll never really know.

shutterfinger · Feb 15, 2022

With the front cell mounted on the shutter, lock the shutter open on B or open it on T. Set the aperture wide open. Using a fine graduation rule or a caliper measure the aperture opening as seen through the front of the lens cell at the center of the cell. This is the entrance pupil. Accurate enough to basic calculations.
Its also possible Gundlach made screw in cells or slip on cells for the casket sets.

jimgalli · Feb 15, 2022

I'm not trying to solve what the Gundlach cells that are present are. They are common. No interest in those. My question was of the possibilities of the "missing" cells that would have matched the other scales. We'll never know. All we can do is guess.

shutterfinger · Feb 15, 2022

24 in * 25.4 = 609.6 mm / 12.5 = 48.768 entrance pupil if front mounted.
35 in * 25.4 = 889 mm focal length /16 = 55.5625 entrance pupil if front mounted.
11 x 14 diagonal is 17.8 * 25.4 = 452.12 / 7.5 = 60.28 entrance pupil.
SKGrimes gives a dial set Ilex #4 shutter max iris opening as 1.741 inch * 25.4 =44.22mm.
609.6 / 44.22 = 13.7
899 / 44.22 = 20.33
So the scales do not match the cells f number if rear mounted.

jimgalli · Feb 16, 2022

Jim out. Sorry I started the thread.

lecarp · Feb 17, 2022

A Meyer satz plasmat possibly. I've always used both types.
Having and adapter and aperture plate engraved would streamline an outfit.

lecarp · Feb 17, 2022

Actually glad you posted this, I may do this!
Its been a while Jim, hope you well!

Vaughn · Feb 17, 2022

jimgalli said:
Jim out. Sorry I started the thread.

Why, Jim? If one shoves a snowball down a slope, one can't expect to control it as it rolls down and picks up speed..

jimgalli · Feb 17, 2022

It was a stupid question with no real possible answer but the Meyer idea was one I hadn't thought of and exactly what I was looking for. Thank you lecarp, and I am well. Meyer catalogs are scarce now with Cameraeccentric out of play. The Satz Plasmat did work at f4.5 so at least it's a viable possibility.

Dan Fromm · Feb 17, 2022

jimgalli said:
It was a stupid question with no real possible answer but the Meyer idea was one I hadn't thought of and exactly what I was looking for. Thank you lecarp, and I am well. Meyer catalogs are scarce now with Cameraeccentric out of play. The Satz Plasmat did work at f4.5 so at least it's a viable possibility.

www.ihagee.org/Lenzen/HMG3-1938E-PlasmatLenses.pdf

Always check what "the list" has.

jimgalli · Feb 17, 2022

Thanks Dan!

abruzzi · Feb 17, 2022

jimgalli said:
Meyer catalogs are scarce now with Cameraeccentric out of play.

Their cert is expired (same thing that happened to LFF last month), so depending on your browser you may have to click through a few warnings, but they are still mostly up.

shuddered · Feb 18, 2022

salesman sample

Freediver · Mar 7, 2022

Jim, I’m looking for one of these if you decide to let it go

Another Mystery to solve!! Turner Reich with Cryptic Aperture scale

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