An interview with ADOX's Mirko

[Ken Nadvornick]

I wonder if Kodak Alaris and ADOX have each considered an alliance with each other?

That's an angle I hadn't heard before. Do you mean post-Building 38?

Ken

 

[MattKing]

That's an angle I hadn't heard before. Do you mean post-Building 38?

Ken

Building 38 may be re-purposable. Eastman Kodak may have other uses for it that may or may not permit the continued manufacture of photographic film - Harman uses their equipment to coat non-photographic products. So Eastman Kodak may end up remaining as a long term source.

Kodak Alaris has a lot of people that used to be part of the various pre-bankruptcy Kodaks - Kodak Canada, Kodak Limited (UK), Eastman Kodak and others worldwide. In addition, I expect they hold a lot of the photography related IT, plus a lot of the recent distribution related experience. I expect as well that they received assignments of the various distribution agreements. So they have both a lot of assets, and a fair bit of "baggage" as well.

I just think that the time since the bankruptcy and the creation of Kodak Alaris has been too short for either Eastman Kodak or Kodak Alaris to make long term projections for Kodak film, and Kodak Alaris' approach to distribution and marketing needs to be based on long term projections.

ADOX may very well be able to benefit from distribution assistance as well as IT and research backup. They may also be able to benefit from finishing and packaging resources. ADOX may be able to offer access to alternative manufacturing.

Ferrania as well.

Or even TIP.

I would seriously doubt that Kodak Alaris would just drop Kodak film - the rights they hold have value if sale of the product can be done profitably.

But I also doubt that they will ramp up promotion if they haven't security of supply and reliable distribution. If you market something that customers cannot obtain, you just end up damaging the parts of your product line that you can supply.

RattyMouse complains about the availability of a particular film in a particular market. That problem could arise from:
a) a surge in popularity, that has left a shortage in the "pipeline";
b) distribution problems that are local to certain markets;
c) distribution problems that are system wide;
d) a fixed production schedule by Eastman Kodak that doesn't match the needs of Kodak Alaris;
e) things I haven't thought of; and/or
f) some or all of the above.

 

[Sal Santamaura]

...What are not reasonable assessments are that this is what Kodak wants, that they don’t care and that when master rolls are all cut, packaged and put on the shelves as final product, then they will make up some lame story and say sorry folks, we can no longer make film...

Corporate entities don't "want" or "care." Contrary to relatively recent attempts at convincing the public otherwise, corporations are not people. They are legal constructs with the sole purpose of making profits for their owners. Kodak Alaris distributes still film made by its supplier, Eastman Kodak, to make money. That is all. It has offered no lame stories to the public about anything so far. I don't anticipate that if/when "master rolls are all cut, packaged and put on gthe shelves as final product" it would begin making up any lame stories. It would most likely dispassionately announce the end of still film availability, just as it has calmly and clearly answered our direct questions thus far.

...All along through this transition from Eastman Kodak to Kodak Alaris I have said that it is highly likely they can not tell the consumer what the future or product roadmap of film is because they do not know, they have scalability issues to work out, especially with Bldg. 38. I’m sure they have tons of meetings in which the tone could be “Man, this is not looking good, we just can not repurpose that coating line and still keep the quality up” or “Folks, we are getting close, one more contract of XXXX and it will fit right into the annual coating runs, woot!”...

Before the bankruptcy, Eastman Kodak had much more than a decade to work out scalability issues after it transitioned most coating to the Building 38 line. The equipment is so massive, designed for sales volume in the mid-1990s, that it's reportedly idle much of the time now. Check Ron Mowery's APUG posts on this subject. I rather suspect that further scalability ranges from extraordinarily difficult to impossible and, when volume falls below the threshold of profitability, Building 38 will follow Building 29 to the scrap heap. Gabershagen's statements do nothing to refute my suspicion.

...Milking is an attitude about a product and or service and often people on here decide for Kodak what their attitude is...

Incorrect. People here, including me, describe the Kodak Alaris attitude communicated by its responses to questions. Tone and what's not said are key. It would be very simple for Gabershagen and Mooney to say "we think our still film product line has a promising future; if/when Eastman Kodak is unwilling or unable to supply us, we'll do whatever we can to keep those products alive" without revealing contractual or commercial proprietary information. But they haven't said that. Instead, they've responded with the usual corporate-speak for "we're going to milk it." I've been on the other side of these communications and interacted directly with Fortune-100 CEOs. The language is unmistakable to me. I might not like it. However, as I've posted before: reality sucks, but it's real.

...It’s up to the individual what they want to assume due to not hearing anything, it becomes a problem when an individual assumption is spouted off as fact...

I have posted that the Alaris executives' responses, not anything PR people are posting on social media, led me to reach certain conclusions. What I surmise/conclude is not fact, it's my opinion. Why would anyone interpret my opinion as fact? Why is this a problem?

 

[AgX]

Kodak Alaris is involved in some digital "widgets", but their biggest cash "cow", which they appear to be doing much more than milking, is colour photographic paper.

There are no public figures about their spread of revenues. One would have to resort to old EK figures.

 

[pdeeh]

Meanwhile, on Mars, Elvis and Geo. Eastman are debating why a thread about Mirko Böddecker of ADOX has mutated horribly into yet another thread about Kodak bloody Alaris ...

 

[Jessestr]

Yeah. I'm kinda sad why this topic can't just stick on the article instead of bashing Kodak.
And the worst part of all. They all think they could change something about ranting about it and tell their opinions. Just stick on topic please.

 

[PKM-25]

Agreed, but unfortunately you might have helped that along when setting up a question to Mirko when saying:

"I’ve seen that Kodak Alaris isn’t really caring any more about it’s film community. They just provide what’s necessary, or at least that is what they have told."

That is how this drift started with me anyway. APUG as a film loving community does not do it self any favors by constantly beating this topic into the ground. I'm bowing out now, there really is no point in going further unless there is a new development.

 

[Sal Santamaura]

Yeah. I'm kinda sad why this topic can't just stick on the article instead of bashing Kodak...

I've been participating in photography forums for 15 years and have never encountered one where posters didn't stray from the topic. It's human nature. To avoid thread drift, you'd probably have to participate in a forum open only to some other species.

...They all think they could change something about ranting about it and tell their opinions...

I've no illusions about changing anything in the real world of Kodak Alaris by sharing my opinions in this or any other thread. Instead, I simply feel compelled to respond when others who might be seen as credible post things that have no apparent factual basis and/or are, based on my experience, likely wrong.

 

[Jessestr]

Agreed, but unfortunately you might have helped that along when setting up a question to Mirko when saying:

"I’ve seen that Kodak Alaris isn’t really caring any more about it’s film community. They just provide what’s necessary, or at least that is what they have told."

That is how this drift started with me anyway. APUG as a film loving community does not do it self any favors by constantly beating this topic into the ground. I'm bowing out now, there really is no point in going further unless there is a new development.

That question was more to poke Mirko rather than the guys reading it. It's one of the many questions asked. In general, there is no need to pick that one and rant 15 pages of comment about it. But okay. Lesson learned, never use specific brand names in an interview.
Thanks for reading and the participation anyways.

 

[Ken Nadvornick]

Just to put a small period at the end of this sentence, my original purpose in posting the TIP color film status update really had nothing to do with speculating about the future of Kodak film, or Kodak Alaris, or Building 38.

I merely intended it to serve as a real-world example of just what film advertising looks like in 2014. That being a direct response to earlier comments wondering just what type of film advertising could be effective, or even be possible, in this overwhelmingly digital photographic age.

My larger point was that one must look pretty far outside-the-box these days, compared to 1980. And that other successful film companies are already doing so, as evidenced by the TIP product update example.

And since this was originally an ADOX thread, with their presence here ADOX as well.

Ken

 

[Henning Serger]

Hello Dan,

The question will die down, it is not so much a Kodak issue as it is a Kodak, Fuji, Ilford, etc. issue of film not bieng on the grocery or drug store shelf.

well it depends on the market: In Germany for example you can get film "at every corner of the street", because all big drugstore chains offer film (C41, E6, partly BW) and film development (C41, E6, BW) and prints. Film developing and prints are done by big mass volume labs (companies running these labs are Fuji Eurocolor, CEWE, Orwonet, allcop; Kodak has given up this market nine years ago in Germany).
Film and prints there are ridiculously cheap. For example a three roll pack of ISO 400/27° Rossmann housebrand CN film is 2,65€. RA-4 prints there can be had for only 1 (!!) Cent. Film development there is in the 0,95€ to 2,55€ range.
Well, you can take photography on film for "free" here, at least almost for free.....
Which is of course part of the problem, because no one is making a sustainable profit at that extremely low prices.
The housebrand films here are all made by Fujifilm. Kodak has completely left that market.

Best regards,
Henning

 

[Henning Serger]

Ken, why dosent Fuji promote film, why do they not have something similar to the 1,000 words blog, why do they not have a Facebook page about their films, why have they not helped to create a video of why photographers love using film?

Dan, fact is that Fujifilm is doing more marketing for film (more precise: for one type of film) than Kodak Alaris, Ilford and Adox together.
They are making TV spots, advertizing in print magazines, have dozens of Facebook pages in lots of countries worldwide.
But their marketing efforts are completely concentrated on Fuji Instax film and cameras (in South Korea they even increased their production capacity for Instax in their plant).
They have 20% increase in sales p.a.
They sold 1,5 million Instax cameras last year.

In 2008 all the "experts" said instant film will be the first film type to die (especially all the Kodak people were convinced).
Then the Impossible Project started, and combined their efforts with an excellent marketing campaign.
Fuji realised the chance and started marketing as well.
Now instant film is the first film type (but unfortunately so far also the only film type) with a real, significant revival.
I think there is something that can be learned from that for all the challenges that we have to master in the next years.

Best regards,
Henning

 

[AgX]

To be fair: until recently amongst those german drugstore chain-stores was one chain that had specialized to serve small municipalities (down to 2000 people). So film was available not at each street corner, but at nearly each place.
This chain though demised (for sure not due to film...) But still there are photo shops at small places.
The offer of film sorts on shelves is declining, but still one typically can easily get a variety of type 135 films locally. And have it processed via a bring-in system.

Fuji realised the chance and started marketing as well.

I heard of that a from Fuji sources long ago, but still have not seen any efforts of that kind, nor have the dealers I inquired at.
Instax films are still hard to get.

 

[RattyMouse]

Dan, fact is that Fujifilm is doing more marketing for film (more precise: for one type of film) than Kodak Alaris, Ilford and Adox together.
They are making TV spots, advertizing in print magazines, have dozens of Facebook pages in lots of countries worldwide.
But their marketing efforts are completely concentrated on Fuji Instax film and cameras (in South Korea they even increased their production capacity for Instax in their plant).
They have 20% increase in sales p.a.
They sold 1,5 million Instax cameras last year.

In 2008 all the "experts" said instant film will be the first film type to die (especially all the Kodak people were convinced).
Then the Impossible Project started, and combined their efforts with an excellent marketing campaign.
Fuji realised the chance and started marketing as well.
Now instant film is the first film type (but unfortunately so far also the only film type) with a real, significant revival.
I think there is something that can be learned from that for all the challenges that we have to master in the next years.

Best regards,
Henning

Absolutely true. All over Asia INSTAX film is extremely popular. I can easily find not only the film in the shops to buy, but the cameras are by far, the most common ones I see in general consumer stores. Every shopping mall that I visit has nice sized kiosks that have maybe 7 to 8 different INSTAX models of cameras to buy, with plenty of film.

Further, if you read Fujifilm's quarterly reports, they constantly state that the INSTAX camera line is experiencing heavy growth and a nice return to their profits.

That is, as you identified above, real support for film, far beyond anything Kodak ever does.

 

[Henning Serger]

To be fair: until recently amongst those german drugstore chain-stores was one chain that had specialized to serve small municipalities (down to 2000 people). So film was available not at each street corner, but at nearly each place.
This chain though demised (for sure not due to film...) But still there are photo shops at small places.

Well, quite a lot of the closed Schlecker shops were replaced by new shops from the competitors (which even have better offerings for film photographers). And in several small towns former Schlecker employees have founded successor shops, running them now at their own risk.

I heard of that a from Fuji sources long ago, but still have not seen any efforts of that kind, nor have the dealers I inquired at.
Instax films are still hard to get.

Sorry, but that is completely wrong:
1. The 'brick and mortar' photo shops in Germany offer Instax film. And all online film distributors offer Instax film. Therefore it is very easy to get Instax film in Germany.
2. Fuji had a special booth exclusively for Instax film and cameras on last Photokina in Cologne. This booth was very popular, I've been there several times during my Photokina days.
3. Fuji made some special marketing activities for Instax in photo shops.
4. They do advertizing for Instax in photo print magazines in Germany (e.g. 'camera' and 'PhotoKlassik'; in PhotoKlassik they have big one page adverts in former and the current edition: buy one and you will see).

Just FYI for all the non-Germans here: The PhotoKlassik ( www.photoklassik.de ) ist a high quality photo print magazine, which is completely focussed on classic photography with film. No digital inside, exclusively film!
It is a magazine from film photographers for film photograpers.
And I think if such a magazine is successful in Germany (and Switzerland, Austria), similar projects are possible in North America, the UK, France, Italy......as well.

So, instead of grumping and wasting time in discussions on forums, it will be better to start projects which get new photographers interested in film.
Therefore, kudos to Jesse and his 'film foundation' in Belgium for example. We need more of that. A grassroots movement for film. Think globally, act locally (I am working here in several of such projects, too; I do my part).

Best regards,
Henning

 

[baachitraka]

Photoklassik is indeed a very good magazine.

I wish Drug store chain also sell Black and White film, but their color film offer is not so bad.

 

[Henning Serger]

Moin Nachbar ,

Photoklassik is indeed a very good magazine.

I wish Drug store chain also sell Black and White film, but their color film offer is not so bad.

well, dm offers AgfaPhoto APX 100, and Rossmann sells Kodak BW 400 CN.

Best regards,
Henning

 

[baachitraka]

Moinmoin,

I did not find any APX 100 in DM, at-least in there online page.

 

[darkosaric]

Moinmoin,

I did not find any APX 100 in DM, at-least in there online page.

Yesterday I was in DM in Elbe-Einkaufszentrum:
APX 100: 3.45€
3 x Kodak gold 200: 8.45€
Generic color iso 200: 1.45€ (3 pack = 3.45€)
Generic color iso 400: 1.45€

All films are 36 exp.

 

[baachitraka]

I will check in the shop again, seems APX 100 price is slightly cheaper that fotoimpex.de price.

 

[AgX]

Well, quite a lot of the closed Schlecker shops were replaced by new shops from the competitors (which even have better offerings for film photographers). And in several small towns former Schlecker employees have founded successor shops, running them now at their own risk.

Not in my area.

The 'brick and mortar' photo shops in Germany offer Instax film. And all online film distributors offer Instax film. Therefore it is very easy to get Instax film in Germany.

Any article is on offer at some internet dealer. But you only can buy something you know of.

I do not know any shop around where I can buy any Instax camera. Nor any Instax Mini films.

In an area of about 400.000 people I only can get Instax Wide, at one shop. And that is on offer for principle reasons not due to sales

Fuji had a special booth exclusively for Instax film and cameras on last Photokina in Cologne. This booth was very popular, I've been there several times during my Photokina days.
They do advertizing for Instax in photo print magazines in Germany (e.g. 'camera' and 'PhotoKlassik'; in PhotoKlassik they have big one page adverts in former and the current edition: buy one and you will see).

These cameras are intended for the general public. Hinting at them at a specialized fair or at specialized magazines is not marketing in the sense I excpect for such products.

Fuji made some special marketing activities for Instax in photo shops.

The shop managers I talked to did not know about such activity at all.

I never ever saw anyone with an Instax camera. (I got several.)

So, instead of grumping and wasting time in discussions on forums, it will be better to start projects which get new photographers interested in film.

I'm not grumping. I'm just rejecting a depiction of the situation that is contrary to what I and people around me experience.




And, do not forget you do not know what I did for the analog world so far.

 

[darkosaric]

In Hamburg only place where I saw instax cameras and films were Saturn and Media Markt. Last time checked about 1-2 months ago. Only ones that I saw having instax cameras (beside me ) on the street were Asian teen tourists.

 

[Henning Serger]

Moinmoin,

I did not find any APX 100 in DM, at-least in there online page.

Just go to their shops, then you will find the film.
So far all dm shops I've been in have (in several cities) offered the APX 100.

Best regards,
Henning

 

[AgX]

In this we do agree...

(Even still the original version in the shops I visited lately.)

 

[Henning Serger]

Any article is on offer at some internet dealer. But you only can buy something you know of.

We even had reports about instant film in TV in prime time here in Germany in one of the popular news channels (n-tv). Just last week a quite detailed report about Instax and Impossible, inclusive interviews with photographers.

I do not know any shop around where I can buy any Instax camera. Nor any Instax Mini films.

So you may be living in an area with a weak photograpy infrastructure. In the areas I am there is no problem at all.
And:
Even with digital Germany is for years an "online buying country". Internet business is extremely popular here and growing. And fact is that there are no problems at all getting all the Instax cameras and films at online distributors.

These cameras are intended for the general public. Hinting at them at a specialized fair or at specialized magazines is not marketing in the sense I excpect for such products.

Sorry, that is really complete nonsense.
1. The Photokina is by far the biggest photo fair worldwide, with about 150,000 visitors from all over the world.
All manufacturers make their plans for announcements of new products in respect of the Photokina date.
Saying that if you present your products there is "hiding" is ridiculous.

2. Advertizing cameras and films in a photo magazine, a magazine which is completely focussed on your customers, is "hiding" the product? Sorry, ridiculous.

In one of the last issues of PhotoKlassik there even was a "Leseraktion" with Instax: Readers got films and reported about their experiences. It was a big success with much more demand from the readers than expected.
That is "hiding"?
Sorry, ridiculous.

The shop managers I talked to did not know about such activity at all.

Then it's their fault. I know of shop managers saying "Kodak stopped making film". We all know these "managers".
It is so easy for them to get all information they need.
http://www.photoscala.de/Artikel/Sofortbild-lebt
http://www.fujifilm.eu/de/produkte/analoge-fotografie/instax/

Best regards,
Henning