An interview with ADOX's Mirko

[RattyMouse]

Sometimes I want to fly out to Rochester, knock on the door and ask "OK, what is *really* going on?"

Especially since Kodak Portra 800 is not in stock in Rome's most recommended film store and was not in stock in Shanghai before I left.

Ask them what's going on and why can't they supply film.

 

[StoneNYC]

Sometimes I want to fly out to Rochester, knock on the door and ask "OK, what is *really* going on?"

+1

 

[Xmas]

Sometimes I want to fly out to Rochester, knock on the door and ask "OK, what is *really* going on?"

http://www.kodak.co.uk/ek/GB/en/Impressum.htm

http://www.kodak.com/ek/US/en/Home_Main_new/About_Kodak.htm

It is just like we had two Ilfords?

But the middle mamanagement are the 'same old horses same old glue'

KA's big advantage may be less tax to pay?

 

[miha]

Dan, I respect you, but I have to point out that you just listed the ONLY-still-financially-successful film producers...

Not true at all. There are others, 2 within the EU. I don't know about the Fujifilm, are they financially unsuccessful?, Lucky China?,...

 

[AgX]

Beware that Kodak Alaris have a complicated structure of several levels. What you link to is just the UK sub-company. Which also is responsible for some other sub-sub-companies...
Nevertheless that name Kodak Alaris International seems to imply more than it actually is.

 

[Ken Nadvornick]

So Dan, unless you have insider information we don't, and TIP isn't lying, by reading only that one single status update from them you now know more about TIP's current situation going forward regarding their film production than you know about Kodak's situation? At least without directly flying to Rochester to ask?

Our friend Ratty worries "... Kodak Portra 800 is not in stock in Rome's most recommended film store and was not in stock in Shanghai before I left. Ask them what's going on and why can't they supply film."

Isn't that exactly the same question preemptively addressed by TIP's bulletin regarding their own current film supply problems? And presumably designed to short circuit exactly the sort of worries and uninformed "Kodak bashing" speculation that you claim is so destructive?

Just askin'...

Ken

 

[removed account4]

Now, you gave an opinion regarding what is meant by "Milking it", I will await a few others before continuing with an opinion on that...

Ratty, Sal, others, do you agree with Stone's definition above of Milking it?

pmk-25

i'm not one of the people you mentioned
and even though a few people don't appreciate my opinion
i will offer it anyways ...

no i don't think they are milking it at all.
i think they are a business who wants to stay in business
and they are not a charity.

people will always believe what they want, even if their opinion
is formed by misinformation and inexperience. ...

 

[Truzi]

*snip*...

Again, nice try Ken, but you can not expect all companies to be just like ADOX, ILFORD and TIP, in terms of how they deal with product roadmaps and corporate web presence.... *snip*
Dan, I respect you, but I have to point out that you just listed the ONLY-still-financially-successful film producers...

Dan, I respect you, but I have to point out that you just listed the ONLY-still-financially-successful film producers...

In other words, you're saying not everyone can be successful and work to promote their business in the new market.

And then you deny that kodak is doing anything wrong, while acknowledging that these 3 companies are able to do it, and do it well enough that even you can acknowledge it.

Similar to my post, though I believe my version may have been too obscure. I do agree with PKM-25 that different companies will naturally have different methods and plans.

Devil's advocate, can someone please elaborate then what is meant by Kodak Alaris "Milking" film for as long as they can?

and

Now, you gave an opinion regarding what is meant by "Milking it", I will await a few others before continuing with an opinion on that...

In the United States, "Milking it" is often used colloquially to suggest they are getting every drop out of it they can - past the point of being reasonable.
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=milking it
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milking_the_system
Usually, like in the context of this thread, it also means without putting anything back in. The buffalo nickle cliche may also apply. I don't believe the posters here merely mean trying to make as much money from the products as possible. Rather, I believe they mean something akin to not maintaining your auto; instead driving it until it breaks, then abandoning it.
Not saying I agree or disagree with this apparent usage of "milking;" just giving an interpretation as you have requested.

Thanks Stone for your opinion, I can't say I agree with it and no, I am not going to cave or change my opinion, largely because I believe that KA is still trying to settle into what will hopefully be a very long term business prospect for them.

I think some of the resistance and dissatisfaction we are reading is because it seems KA has settled into the non-film side quite quickly - almost immediately. A lot of marketing can be perception of the company by potential customers. Besides, some people feel better if they can vent.

While I'd like to see a little more film-related stuff from KA, it's not a deal-breaker for me either. I just made a large (for me) purchase of Kodak film, and will continue to do so.

@jnanian, While I'd certainly like it cheaper, I don't consider cost an issue with Kodak or any film company, because almost everything has been increasing in price. To me, it's just one of many (and mostly non-film-related) items that I have to pay more for each year; like fuel, food, clothing, etc.

On a few car BBSes I frequent, people often complain about fuel prices, but not film prices - go figure
Of course, I do often complain about the cost of gas - but I'm just venting.

 

[Dinesh]

Why are we banging on Kodak yet again?

 

[PKM-25]

So Dan, unless you have insider information we don't, and TIP isn't lying, by reading only that one single status update from them you now know more about TIP's current situation going forward regarding their film production than you know about Kodak's situation? At least without directly flying to Rochester to ask?

Our friend Ratty worries "... Kodak Portra 800 is not in stock in Rome's most recommended film store and was not in stock in Shanghai before I left. Ask them what's going on and why can't they supply film."

Isn't that exactly the same question preemptively addressed by TIP's bulletin regarding their own current film supply problems? And presumably designed to short circuit exactly the sort of worries and uninformed "Kodak bashing" speculation that you claim is so destructive?

I have to keep it short, have a shoot to do in a moment.

My main point in response has been and will always be that just because Kodak does not swing open the front door and say, "any product shortages are temporary, so hang in there" does not mean they are not doing what is best to move the company AND it's customer's needs ahead in a manner that is consistent with what they have planned. As a matter of fact, I DID knock on the door in a manner of speaking and got the reply from Thomas Mooney regarding price increases and shortages in Asia, information that was easy to get and easily shared...

I can't speak for others here but even Mirko defended KA somewhat in the interview when he was asked a question that was more emotionally driven than logically. I think it bothers a handful of folks that I am satisfied with the status of Kodak films and the answers I get if I ask, when I say I want to go knock on the door, it is so I can ask them what is going on with marketing, not with the films they produce.

I will still wait for a couple more answers about what milking it means before I make another point but don't have a lot of time because I am about to do my biggest shoot of the year, starts this afternoon and goes until July 4th, so do expect me to, well, dissapear.

So what do other people think is meant by KA "Milking film"?

 

[Ken Nadvornick]

Why are we banging on Kodak yet again?

The current subtopic of this thread is beyond painfully obvious...

Ken

 

[removed account4]

Why are we banging on Kodak yet again?

... SSDD

 

[Sal Santamaura]

Devil's advocate, can someone please elaborate then what is meant by Kodak Alaris "Milking" film for as long as they can?

I used the phrase as it's commonly applied for all industries, not in any way specific to Kodak Alaris. "Milking" a product or product line is to keep selling it as long as one can without putting any resources into maintaining it. No real marketing. No repairs of production equipment if doing so would cost more than a trivial amount. No product improvement R&D. No R&D to deal with product component obsolescence or supplier loss. No expenditures to replace departing personnel who are key to maintaining production. No outlays to comply with any new environmental or other regulatory requirements. Leave the cow in its stall and keep squeezing those udders until no more milk comes out. Then send the cow to slaughter.

In Kodak Alaris' case, my perception, based on the Gabershagen and Mooney responses received, is that they'll keep selling still film as long as Eastman Kodak continues to produce it, customers continue paying the premium prices for it, and volume stays high enough. If any of those factors change, the communications have led me to perceive that Kodak Alaris will not make an attempt to coat its own still film. Even seeking another supplier to coat and finish film that Alaris would sell under its own brand seems unlikely, given the tone of its responses.

Kodak Alaris' communications cause me to conclude that Kodak fiim, or at least any Kodak-branded film I'd be interested in using, will disappear when Building 38 shuts down next year or soon thereafter. Kodak Alaris clearly telegraphs that it's a digital widget company with a future in digital widgets. It inherited the film cow and will milk it for cash while possible. If these things were not the case, Kodak Alaris could easily dispel those impressions without revealing any contractually or commercially proprietary information, but it hasn't. The tone of its responses creates and continuously reinforces them.

 

[eddie]

To me, "milking it" is a pejorative term. It implies a lack of interest in continuing something beyond its current availability. I think it's unfair, considering the relatively new situation in which KA finds itself. This is a major corporate change, which will require time to solidify. Some of the posts I've read seem to be saying, unless KA puts in writing, "we promise to continue our entire line of film for 100 years", the posters see it as abandoning film. There's not a corporation, anywhere, who can make a long term promise like that. It would be irresponsible.

As for pricing, I don't see it any differently than other products. I can buy cheap coffee and wine. I choose to buy better, more expensive coffee and wine. After 40+ years of doing this, I don't consider photo supplies a matter of expendable income. It's a necessity, just like food, gas, and utilities. Those things have gone up. I don't expect film to be any different.

 

[Truzi]

I have to keep it short, have a shoot to do in a moment.

You're setting a good example here... we should be out taking pictures instead of bickering

I am about to do my biggest shoot of the year, starts this afternoon and goes until July 4th

Wow, that's a long shoot, have fun. (Unfortunately, I'm at work, typing this on a break, so I'm a bit jealous.)

 

[eddie]

... Kodak fiim, or at least any Kodak-branded film I'd be interested in using, will disappear when Building 38 shuts down next year or soon thereafter.

This is a good point, and the major area of fear I have for Kodak's future. Any company reliant on another entity for it's continuation will always be bound by the other entities actions. I have to admit I haven't really followed the "death of Kodak" threads closely. Have they announced the closure of Building 38? If so, it doesn't bode well.

 

[Sal Santamaura]

...Any company reliant on another entity for it's continuation will always be bound by the other entities actions...

After a long engineering career (in a non-photographic industry) dealing with the fallout from outsourcing, I'm a huge fan of vertical integration. Unfortunately, it's mostly history. Virtually all companies are now reliant on outside suppliers to greater or lesser degrees. The days of George Eastman raising his own cattle to ensure high quality gelatin are long gone.

...Have they announced the closure of Building 38?...

No, neither Eastman Kodak nor Kodak Alaris have been any more forthcoming on that subject than they have about other things. 2015 is when Eastman Kodak's large motion picture supply agreement reportedly ends; speculation is that volume will then fall too far to cover overhead of such a large coating line and it will follow the others to scrap dealers.

 

[Ken Nadvornick]

Leave the cow in its stall and keep squeezing those udders until no more milk comes out. Then send the cow to slaughter.

Ken's Dog

 

[Sal Santamaura]

Ken's Dog

In this case I don't expect it will be happy eating metallic dog food.

 

[Tom1956]

I'm 57 1/2. Now it's a race to see if film will die off the earth or I will, first. After I'm croaked, you guys can do what you want. But I'm shootin' film till then. But at these prices, it doesn't look like Kodak film though.

 

[StoneNYC]

In Dan's defense of Kodak, I will point out Ken that impossible WAITED until they had the solution before addressing the problem.

It is POSSIBLE that kodak hasn't found a solution to their problem (big machine, small market) so they haven't given info.

But I'll believe it when I see it.

 

[RattyMouse]

I used the phrase as it's commonly applied for all industries, not in any way specific to Kodak Alaris. "Milking" a product or product line is to keep selling it as long as one can without putting any resources into maintaining it. No real marketing. No repairs of production equipment if doing so would cost more than a trivial amount. No product improvement R&D. No R&D to deal with product component obsolescence or supplier loss. No expenditures to replace departing personnel who are key to maintaining production. No outlays to comply with any new environmental or other regulatory requirements. Leave the cow in its stall and keep squeezing those udders until no more milk comes out. Then send the cow to slaughter.

In Kodak Alaris' case, my perception, based on the Gabershagen and Mooney responses received, is that they'll keep selling still film as long as Eastman Kodak continues to produce it, customers continue paying the premium prices for it, and volume stays high enough. If any of those factors change, the communications have led me to perceive that Kodak Alaris will not make an attempt to coat its own still film. Even seeking another supplier to coat and finish film that Alaris would sell under its own brand seems unlikely, given the tone of its responses.

Kodak Alaris' communications cause me to conclude that Kodak fiim, or at least any Kodak-branded film I'd be interested in using, will disappear when Building 38 shuts down next year or soon thereafter. Kodak Alaris clearly telegraphs that it's a digital widget company with a future in digital widgets. It inherited the film cow and will milk it for cash while possible. If these things were not the case, Kodak Alaris could easily dispel those impressions without revealing any contractually or commercially proprietary information, but it hasn't. The tone of its responses creates and continuously reinforces them.

Thank you Sal. Your eloquently written post describes exactly what I mean when I wrote that Kodak Alaris was milking film. I agree with you completely and can say this is why I am so disappointed in what Kodak Alaris has done with their new asset, Eastman Kodak's film. I was hoping for so much more from Alaris and have been disappointed time and time again.

 

[PKM-25]

Alright, all the milk glasses are full, I think I can weigh in…

Most of what we do when talking about Kodak Alaris Holdings, LLC is speculate, because we can only base what we think will happen by what has happened, been said and the absence of information. So a few seem to think Kodak is just milking the film product line until either sales fall below being worth it or until the coating line falls below the capacity needed to make it worth it, IE, loss of MP industry contracts. I think these are reasonable assessments…

What are not reasonable assessments are that this is what Kodak wants, that they don’t care and that when master rolls are all cut, packaged and put on the shelves as final product, then they will make up some lame story and say sorry folks, we can no longer make film. It's also not reasonable to assume that KA being quiet means they don't care, if they don't have an answer to the future of film yet, then why should they feed the speculation game you all seem to like to play?

All along through this transition from Eastman Kodak to Kodak Alaris I have said that it is highly likely they can not tell the consumer what the future or product roadmap of film is because they do not know, they have scalability issues to work out, especially with Bldg. 38. I’m sure they have tons of meetings in which the tone could be “Man, this is not looking good, we just can not repurpose that coating line and still keep the quality up” or “Folks, we are getting close, one more contract of XXXX and it will fit right into the annual coating runs, woot!”

So are they really milking film? We don’t know, because we don’t yet know what will become of Bldg. 38 when the MP contracts run out and we don’t yet know what coating options there are for KA. Milking is an attitude about a product and or service and often people on here decide for Kodak what their attitude is, even when they help make a cool film about film users, get talented people to write for Dead Link Removed, etc.

I did notice on the Kodak Professional Facebook Page that fairly often people respond in complaints in not hearing from Kodak. I have told several at KA that I hope to see more communication from them about film products as well. But they are being quiet even about that, so we can either assume the worst, the best or somewhere in-between, a personal choice.

But one thing’s for sure, they still make and sell great products and do answer the questions they have answers for. It’s up to the individual what they want to assume due to not hearing anything, it becomes a problem when an individual assumption is spouted off as fact.

Take care and see you all in a couple weeks..

 

[Ken Nadvornick]

In this case I don't expect it will be happy eating metallic dog food.

Ken's Dog (who already "knew the answer" because he understood the milking cow analogy from delicious personal experience...)



Ken

 

[MattKing]

Kodak Alaris is involved in some digital "widgets", but their biggest cash "cow", which they appear to be doing much more than milking, is colour photographic paper.

They manufacture the stuff, and they have done so for quite a while. Therefore, they control that part of their destiny.

I wonder if Kodak Alaris and ADOX have each considered an alliance with each other?