An interview with ADOX's Mirko

[RattyMouse]

What's the compelling case to use ADOX films over Ilford? I have zero experience with ADOX.

 

[Tom1956]

I feel this is a bit nihilistic.
Also, i feel it is somewhat like asking me how Chevrolet should best spend their money to get people to buy one of their vehicles. While I can throw about ideas, I do not know much about advertising. However, I do know that Chevrolet does advertise each of their models. All of their advertising bullet points and expenditures neither sway nor appeal to me - but I'm not everyone, and have always been cognizant of that.

I've always owned Chevys. My first car in 1974 was a Chevy, and I still have it. My main transportation is a 2013 Nissan Frontier. I don't buy from Government Motors. I buy one every April 15, but have no desire to have it in my driveway. All the advertising in the world can't put enough lipstick on that pig.

 

[Ken Nadvornick]

What's the compelling case to use ADOX films over Ilford? I have zero experience with ADOX.

Only my personal opinion, of course. But all of us have hoped for a new manufacturing model to replace the now way-overcapacity behemoths that made sense in the 80s, but which today can fill the world's entire demand for a given film in only 30 minutes.

We've wanted something scaled down to the point where it's sustainable over the long run. An operation that is much more responsive to the customer. Willing and able to produce boutique products. Not hamstrung by Wall Street demands for 300% increases in profits quarter-over-quarter, forever.

It seems to me that's exactly what ADOX is trying to be. They saved commercial Rodinal production, and the Agfa MCC papers. They reengineered the CHS 100 film into CHS II when Fotokemika went under. They had a Polywarmtone reengineering project going. They also had an APX reengineering project going. All of these materials were much beloved. And all were threatened.

In my book, that's being responsive to your customers requests in the extreme. And I think deserving of our support. If we want continued long-term choice in the black-and-white film and paper marketplace, we need to spread our money around a bit more equally, I think.

Ken

 

[PKM-25]

What's the compelling case to use ADOX films over Ilford? I have zero experience with ADOX.

In the second question given to Mirko, he replies "What we offer are specialties" and that they can not compete with the more mainstream offerings, especially at the current price point. He also goes on to give an example of CMS-20 ultra-high res film and films for reversal process.

These are films that Fuji or Ilford might not offer strictly on the basis of not having enough sales to regularly post a profit and in the case of Kodak with a film like Techpan, sales were no where near the point of being worth the cost to produce and distribute so it was discontinued. No matter the company, products that underperform and put the entire portfolio at risk are rightfully axed, nothing personal, it's business.

As far as Fuji promoting film by *selling* a film camera, I don't buy it. That camera hit the market five years ago, considering how many films they have axed since then and how they have less of a film promotion presence than Kodak, I think calling Fuji selling a film camera film promotion is a bit of a reach.

Chevy advertises cars because unlike film even in the 80's & 90's, cars are believed to be a necessity, practically the definition of mainstream. Both vehicles I own I bought solely on word of mouth, reputation as I have directly experienced by my friends and peers, ironically same with film and darkroom products.

I like advertising, hell I have made a good portion of my income in serving that need with my images. But when it comes right down to it, if I see an expensive print ad for film by Ilford or Kodak in a glossy like Nat Geo or even Popular Photo, I am going to be a little upset because that is a waste of money and puts precious capitol at risk.

With some nuances of technology aside, film is pretty much what it has always been, so when film makers say, buy my film instead of a digital camera, kind of sounds like an agenda rather than having a whole bunch of enthusiastic folks spreading the word. Right or wrong, it is a team effort now and yes, I would love to see KA emerge with some more grass roots, meeting in the middle to high five kind of involvement.

But good god folks, lets not take them to task on a daily basis while the film is in stock and without knowing what they might have planned.

No one wants to give a kid a present who has been throwing tantrums all week...

 

[removedacct3]

Speaking of Adox film -- are any of Adox's current 35mm films available in bulk? I don't see it on Adox's store, but maybe I'm missing it somewhere.

I think I've read somewhere that one of the machines needed for producing bulk rolls is broken. Siemens, the machine's manufacturer, doesn't do any support on obsolete machinary. And on top of that the software is out of date as well. I would like to see CHS 100 II bulk rolls as well, but I do not think that will happen any time soon.

 

[Ricardo Miranda]

Ken,
For most of your post you are correct. They still have a Polywarmtone project going, albeit it is very slow moving.
See this site here: http://www.polywarmtone.com/Blog/English.html
See also this thread here at APUG: http://www.polywarmtone.com/Blog/English.html

ADOX also makes some very interesting films like Silvermax and its 14 tone range: http://www.adox.de/english/ADOX%20Films/SILVERMAX/SMAX_index.html or the CMS II 20: http://www.adox.de/english/ADOX Films/ADOX_Films/ADOX_CMS_Films.html
They also do a B&W ISO 100 Pan-X Super8 film: http://www.adox.de/english/ADOX Films/page53/index.html

 

[baachitraka]

Wish they bring CHS II in 120 soon.

 

[Jessestr]

Ken, why dosent Fuji promote film, why do they not have something similar to the 1,000 words blog, why do they not have a Facebook page about their films, why have they not helped to create a video of why photographers love using film?

Why is Simon only on APUG & not RFF when SOOOOOO many Leica and other RF users use film? Or why not LFF for the same reasons? Why would anyone expect him to be?

Why do people ask us if we can still get film for that "thing" when we are USING the darn camera?

I bet a LOT of people who have read this thread are indeed asking "why?"....but I doubt it has anything to do with Kodak...

Fuji does promote it. I did an interview for their (digital) X-T1 camera. And I had to pick it up at the headquarters here in Belgium and they have like glass box with their film & polaroid line up (only fp-100c tho). And a lot of information folders about it, even sample packages for people to try out.

I think Fuji would actually do MORE than Kodak about sales and such if they had more customers (like if customers from KA would go to Fuji's film). I'm pretty sure they would be more involved if they sold more film.

In what publications? And once those publications are named, have you seen Fuji, Adox and or Ilford pay for film ads in similar spreads?

What would that acknowledgment look like? Who would it appeal to? Who would it sway, what would be the bullet points of the campaigns?

If Ilford came out with Delta 400 in 4x5, how should they spend their advertising dollars in promoting this format? If Ferrania succeeds in creating new transparency film, what is the best form of advertising?

Best form of advertising today is social media and use the people in your advantage. Like I said, I will make some advertisements for Adox, without asking them to pay me to do. Just because I can, and it helps the company, and us as a film shooter. They shouldn't promote themselves, but we could promote them. Instead of posting on tihs forum. Go out, show people in the streets that film still exist.



In general: please back on topic and stop bashing Kodak, start loving Adox, Ilford, Fuji & Kodak. Times are though enough already.

 

[RattyMouse]

In the second question given to Mirko, he replies "What we offer are specialties" and that they can not compete with the more mainstream offerings, especially at the current price point. He also goes on to give an example of CMS-20 ultra-high res film and films for reversal process.

I don't know much about those types of films so the advantages of ADOX escapes me. I'm too new at this and not at that level I guess.

These are films that Fuji or Ilford might not offer strictly on the basis of not having enough sales to regularly post a profit and in the case of Kodak with a film like Techpan, sales were no where near the point of being worth the cost to produce and distribute so it was discontinued. No matter the company, products that underperform and put the entire portfolio at risk are rightfully axed, nothing personal, it's business.

As far as Fuji promoting film by *selling* a film camera, I don't buy it.

I did. I bought two of them (in the last 4 months, not 5 years ago); both the GF670 and GF670W. And because of those purchases I'm buying a LOT more film now. Fuji also sells the Klasse S and W 35mm cameras. I may end up with a Klasse S if I don't buy an M3. I'm still up in the air on that one. Again more film purchased.

Fuji also sells a bazillion INSTAX film cameras and is slowly moving those cameras towards more enthusiast type cameras.

That camera hit the market five years ago, considering how many films they have axed since then and how they have less of a film promotion presence than Kodak, I think calling Fuji selling a film camera film promotion is a bit of a reach.

Read your text above? Axing a product is not personal, it's strictly business.

 

[NJH]

Today I was talking to a friend at work (in IT) who is also a professional photographer. He was telling me how people seem to just want CDs of their weddings now, not albums. These aren't smart-phone pictures of office parties or vacations. It has changed a lot in just 10 years.

By attempting to increase printing, it would seem KA is already investing funds to increase a market. To do so, they either have to persuade the same people to print more, or recruit more people to print photos. Either way, they are actively trying to expand a market in a world where those who want it already know, and the rest appear content with something else.

When we got married we didn't feel like hiring a photographer as it was a low key affair and not the first time for one of us, so we got the groom to do it and promised some others would take a few shots so there should be some OK photographs from the day and he wouldn't be to stressed about it. He did indeed take some OK photographs but he spent a lot of time and effort making up a little coffee table type book for us using one of those online services, the anti-thesis of analogers I know but the end result was a really really nice thing to get. OTOH we went to a wedding last year, 2x professional photographers, loads of setup staged bits of shooting but the end result was something like 500 not very well processed boring images on a website. I may still get a book made for the couple of the random shots I took that day as I can't believe they are satisfied with junk like that, horrid Canon Jpeg like colour and B&W images with no grey only black or white. It reminded me why I went back to film but regardless of the taking medium why on earth don't people want something permanent in the living room you can pick up and hold or pass to people, something that has had some love and attention put into its production.

It seems clear to me that there is a lost generation, those who just aren't used to books or albums and are thus completely unaware of how powerful and wonderful the printed image is, they need educating.

 

[AgX]

What about Harman's earlier Defend the Darkroom initiative? Or their more recent world-wide Local Darkroom program to connect new users to nearby available facilities? What about their world-wide Image on a Box photo competitions?

I would not have noticed any of these would I not be involved into film photography already and am glancing through related internet sites.


The effort I experiance aside the two I already gave and that I forgot to mention is that "Fujifilm" blimb cruising above my place. But in some places here you won't find Fuji film other than rebranded. Fuji have their stronghold at photo shops.

But with their portfolio in mind they might not even hint at film with that "namedropping".

 

[miha]

I think Fuji would actually do MORE than Kodak about sales and such if they had more customers (like if customers from KA would go to Fuji's film). I'm pretty sure they would be more involved if they sold more film.

Speaking for myself, no 400 ASA B&W film, no colour C-41 4x5 film... whay would I go to Fuji?

 

[Jessestr]

Speaking for myself, no 400 ASA B&W film, no colour C-41 4x5 film... whay would I go to Fuji?

That's not the point I was going to make. The guys at Fuji were really great to me and open about everything.

 

[miha]

I can understand that, but Fuji simply can't sell more film to me for the reasons explained.

 

[ADOX Fotoimpex]

(there was a url link here which no longer exists)

 

[RattyMouse]

I can understand that, but Fuji simply can't sell more film to me for the reasons explained.

Right, if they don't make film that you want or even fits in your camera, it's sort of a non starter.

 

[AgX]

[At the Fuji] headquarters here in Belgium and they have like glass box with their film & polaroid line up (only fp-100c tho). And a lot of information folders about it, even sample packages for people to try out.

A showcase inside a manufacturers regional office with some folders around means promoting film??

 

[Jessestr]

(there was a url link here which no longer exists)

Thanks Mirko!

Right, if they don't make film that you want or even fits in your camera, it's sort of a non starter.

Yes. But you have the opportunity to buy film from Adox, Ilford, Kodak & Fuji. No one forbids you from buying multiple brands for multiple formats. If Kodak suits better for 4x5" get that. If fuji suits better for your 35mm photography.. get that. The world is so awesome you still have so much choice as of today.

 

[Sal Santamaura]

When we got married we didn't feel like hiring a photographer as it was a low key affair and not the first time for one of us, so we got the groom to do it...

This has to be an example of the difference between British and American English. In the US, "groom" refers to the man who ends up being a husband when the ceremony is complete. It seems impossible for that person to photographically document the day's activities. Who is the "groom" where you live?

 

[PKM-25]

That's not the point I was going to make. The guys at Fuji were really great to me and open about everything.

Ok, I suppose I see the pattern here, you interviewed them, that is not promotion to get new customers because if you ask Kodak or Ilford questions that is called PR or Customer Service, you sought them out, they did not seek you out.

Also, not everyone spends a lot of time or any on social media, studies are showing that even Facebook is falling out of favor due to a varying number of things, and that includes young people.

Weddings, more and more photographers I know, read *real* photographers, the ones that by definition earn a full time living, are adding film to their offerings for weddings and some are now working exclusively and pulling in close to ten grand per event. I do one per year at over that amount and hand print the black and white images. One of our semi-regular posters, NB23 shoots film for weddings.

All in all, people are parroting what *they* experience, see and read elsewhere, not reaching out to make sure that the other parts of the film use and promotion equation are represented, this causes conflicting information when for example people start saying that Fuji is promoting film by selling a very small subset of enthusiasts a very expensive folding 120 camera, it hardly applies to everyone.

I remember a thread not long ago in which Simon gave a breakdown of where they get the most success in promoting film, at the bottom of the list were expensive print ads in publications, social media and other forms of web based PR product announcements being much more effective. Yet some people are often asking film makers to engage in expensive ad campaigns that are falling out of favor from an ROI point...just to feel loved, when they already use film...strange...

I put a TON of effort into marketing film because I need it around for my career, but I don't go around parroting things that only apply to me and is information that was gotten only because it was within arm's reach. Before you make assertions about who is or is not promoting film and how, you have to put in the time to get your facts straight....not saying everything I am referring to is 100% correct but I really do try.

And can you take a guess where the most battlefield-esque and conflicted place is in terms of factual basis ( purely opinion )? It's here with statements often resembling a person who from his backyard refuses to acknowledge his town is in a drought because his own lawn is green from pouring his bath water on it.....not in my backyard, that is not what I see, no sir...there is no drought.

Most on here do not have the time or inclination to get their facts straight, that is ok. But what is not ok is stating personal experience in a one size fits all fashion that is thrown out to everyone else as a blanket statement. That is what I believe is the sole reason this thread is many pages long instead of just a couple...

And when these threads become many pages long, that is less time behind the camera, less time under the enlarger, less time showing other people great work. Less time helping to promote film.

The thread is about an interview with Mirko and where ADOX is at, some great information in there but as many industry discussions can often do, this one has drifted....why is that folks?

Are you not *really* into photography as much as racking up post counts in talking about it?

 

[StoneNYC]

I've always owned Chevys. My first car in 1974 was a Chevy, and I still have it. My main transportation is a 2013 Nissan Frontier. I don't buy from Government Motors. I buy one every April 15, but have no desire to have it in my driveway. All the advertising in the world can't put enough lipstick on that pig.

Chevy and GM are the same...

 

[StoneNYC]

This has to be an example of the difference between British and American English. In the US, "groom" refers to the man who ends up being a husband when the ceremony is complete. It seems impossible for that person to photographically document the day's activities. Who is the "groom" where you live?

He meant groomsman .... Just a slip not a language difference.

 

[NJH]

Thanks Stone exactly that. I must have mistyped it and the blasted auto correct decided to cut the word down for me. Not so clever IT.

 

[Tom1956]

Chevy and GM are the same...

Duh, Really? That's my point, and why I bought a Nissan.

 

[ME Super]

Speaking for myself, no 400 ASA B&W film, no colour C-41 4x5 film... whay would I go to Fuji?

Provia and Velvia are two reasons why I shoot Fuji. Not terribly interested in color negative, but when I do, it's Kodak. For B&W I split my loyalties between the Rollei (Agfa) brand for Infrared, and Ilford for conventional B&W.

Why Fuji? E-6, man, E-6. Though I do shoot some Wittner Chrome 200D (Aviphot Chrome 200 from Agfa) from time to time as well. Both companies make nice films. So do Kodak and Ilford.

I've not yet tried any of Adox's films, but would like to try their Silvermax soon. The pictures I've seen taken with it on here look wonderful.