An interview with ADOX's Mirko

[Ricardo Miranda]

Just nit-picking, but it is nit-picking

Ooops!

 

[Jessestr]

Not everyone who shoots black and white film shoots color film, so it might not end up being a case of "Everyone" jumping to Fuji for color film.

As for the other statement about Kodak, I am glad you said that, I would like to address something that you said in which Mirko gave it to you straight:

"I’ve seen that Kodak Alaris isn’t really caring any more about it’s film community. They just provide what’s necessary, or at least that is what they have told."

This is not based on fact now is it, this is an opinion of yours that was posed as a question. If you search my past posts, you will find that I defend Kodak a LOT because of how they continue to take a bashing when they are still making and stocking some of the very best films in the world at *very* reasonable prices. You even post a link to the Kodak Professional FB page on your own FB page and then state this, kind of not-so-cool, right?

I encourage you to actually write or call some of the folks at Kodak and address what you asked Mirko, that way you can get facts. Because I think you are on a good path with the encouragement of young folks who are not worn out and jaded like other film users are.

You are doing good work, you owe it to your self...

Thanks. I'm not against Kodak, as I'm shooting Kodak exclusively actually... Switching to Ilford though. I'd love to help Kodak but I want to have some questions answered before I do so.
I'm 21, buying a lot of film gear. (as a student) If there's no film anymore available, then I've spent all my money on nothing, could have just shot on digital but I like film so much more. So I'm trying to boost this economy in every single way I can.

 

[PKM-25]

Thanks. I'm not against Kodak, as I'm shooting Kodak exclusively actually... Switching to Ilford though. I'd love to help Kodak but I want to have some questions answered before I do so.
I'm 21, buying a lot of film gear. (as a student) If there's no film anymore available, then I've spent all my money on nothing, could have just shot on digital but I like film so much more. So I'm trying to boost this economy in every single way I can.

Interesting, so let me get this straight, you are currently using Kodak films, obviously getting the results you want, what more info could you possibly want then?

Because despite what many fist pounding folks on here may *think* they are entitled to, there is NO business in photography that needs to roll out the red carpet of disclosure of proprietary business info such as product roadmaps. Am I interested in if I will be able to get TMY2 in 5-10 years?...sure I am. But I know it is pointless to ask them if that will be the case because it is ***Proprietary Business Information*** that I have no right as the consumer to demand of any company.

And what on earth makes you think for a minute that there will be no more film??? Ilford who is TRULY an exceptional circumstance in terms of corporate PR will be trucking right along because in terms of analog consumables, they have it taken care of front to back. This site is the ONLY one Simon Galley participates in, not Photo.net, not LFF, Leica User Forum or any other. So his much valued presence on here represents an ****EXCEPTION****, not something you can or even should expect from any other photography company. Full stop...

So write or call Thomas Mooney, Audrey Jonckheer or anyone else you locate the contact for at Kodak and fire away your questions. They will be more than happy to reply to them and supply you with an answer that they are permitted to....just like Ilford. If they can not satisfy your inquiry due to what are VERY common ( Apple, Nikon, Canon, Leica ) internal policies about product roadmaps, then it is up to you if you want to conclude your use of their products based on something I would consider rather counterproductive if you truly enjoy their films.

 

[Ken Nadvornick]

Because despite what many fist pounding folks on here may *think* they are entitled to...

I don't think anybody is fist pounding here. What they are doing is voting with their wallets. And not always in Kodak's favor. Especially in black-and-white film.

Everyone has a right to set their own purchasing conditions. Not just for film, but for everything. Money is hard to come by. Especially post-recession. Customers have a right to ask questions before parting with theirs. What they don't have is, as you correctly state, the right to expect any guidance from Kodak.

But lacking guidance, they DO have a right to interpret that silence any way they wish. And if the continued availability of a product ten years in the future is important enough to them, and they can't get a satisfying answer from one vendor, they are within their rights to act upon those interpretations and choose another vendor.

Kodak, like all other analog film-related companies (both equipment and supplies) lost the vast majority of their customers and revenue to digital photography years ago. And the number one remaining film consumer fear since that happened has been the loss of sustainability of whatever analog products each were still using.

That's been the driving, highly emotional bottom line concern for everyone now for years. It's what keeps them awake at night. It's what dominates the conversations here on APUG. It's what makes them think long and hard about where to spend their film photography money. That fear is everywhere. And only getting worse as time goes by.

So I agree with you 100%. Kodak has absolutely no obligation whatsoever to make known any of it's future plans for film. And nobody in the remaining film-consuming marketplace has any right whatsoever to expect them to do so. If they choose to remain completely silent regard film, that is their undeniable right. It's their decision to make.

Ken

 

[Jessestr]

Interesting, so let me get this straight, you are currently using Kodak films, obviously getting the results you want, what more info could you possibly want then?

Because despite what many fist pounding folks on here may *think* they are entitled to, there is NO business in photography that needs to roll out the red carpet of disclosure of proprietary business info such as product roadmaps. Am I interested in if I will be able to get TMY2 in 5-10 years?...sure I am. But I know it is pointless to ask them if that will be the case because it is ***Proprietary Business Information*** that I have no right as the consumer to demand of any company.

And what on earth makes you think for a minute that there will be no more film??? Ilford who is TRULY an exceptional circumstance in terms of corporate PR will be trucking right along because in terms of analog consumables, they have it taken care of front to back. This site is the ONLY one Simon Galley participates in, not Photo.net, not LFF, Leica User Forum or any other. So his much valued presence on here represents an ****EXCEPTION****, not something you can or even should expect from any other photography company. Full stop...

So write or call Thomas Mooney, Audrey Jonckheer or anyone else you locate the contact for at Kodak and fire away your questions. They will be more than happy to reply to them and supply you with an answer that they are permitted to....just like Ilford. If they can not satisfy your inquiry due to what are VERY common ( Apple, Nikon, Canon, Leica ) internal policies about product roadmaps, then it is up to you if you want to conclude your use of their products based on something I would consider rather counterproductive if you truly enjoy their films.

You made a very good statement. And I agree this way you put it. I wasn't really thinking that way and opened my eyes.

Kodak, like all other analog film-related companies (both equipment and supplies) lost the vast majority of their customers and revenue to digital photography years ago. And the number one remaining film consumer fear since that happened has been the loss of sustainability of whatever analog products each were still using.

That's been the driving, highly emotional bottom line concern for everyone now for years. It's what keeps them awake at night. It's what dominates the conversations here on APUG. It's what makes them think long and hard about where to spend their film photography money. That fear is everywhere. And only getting worse as time goes by.

Ken

That's about it. I'm still young, spending money on gear that might become useless after some years when film is out of existence. For people who work or have got thousand of camera's it might not look that sad. But as a student, getting a Leica, a lens, an enlarger is not evident, even at the prices today. So it feels like I'm spending a fortune on something that can become zero tot none from value in a few years. And that's also one of the reasons I'm fighting for existence of film, maybe the point why I was poking Kodak with my statements. I am happy to see what Ilford is doing, and that's why I want to switch, even though I love tri-x to death (and portra).

Getting all my friends who are into photography to film photography, reaching people, setting up sharing points, organize meetings ... and now I'm setting up a darkroom in Belgium for film shooters. And I tell you, I'm only 21, still a student. These things are not easy to achieve (neither I want them to be easy). It gives me a challenge, a goal and something to look forward too while I am shooting film. Probably even when film dies.. there will always be a Chinese guy who makes some film I guess (no offence to Chinese people, they are awesome).

But yes, I do feel the fear of losing film, which would react to the prices of camera gear. And I know it's sounds silly for a single camera. I don't own a film lab, which would lose all it's clients, or a second hand shop with film camera's that can't be used.. they should have far bigger problems in term of economics. But for me personally, it would be disastrous. I can't make the same images on digital which I do on film. I've lost my soul and heart to it. As said, one of the reasons I'm fighting for this and trying to connect with the source like Adox.

I think there is still time to make a change, and let film coexist with digital. And maybe lots of people will think "this is nonsense, it's not like back in the ol' days". I know, but that's what makes me young and creative. My target is not the older public, as most of you shot film in your life, but target the new photographers. Who buy a Nikon D3200 or Canon 700D, which have no clue what they are trying to achieve, the public that thinks film camera's aren't good. There is a need for digital photography, but most people don't need the silly advantages of speed and quick facebook sharing. That's not what photography is about.

Maybe the hardest part is to find people that are really into photography. Everyone owns a DSLR, thinks they are a protog. But they just take snapshots and do not care. But when I find these people that are trying to achieve something with photography. Most of the time they already thought about film or already using it. That kind of people I want to connect with and expand the film industry again.

Just what I'm thinking, right here and right now. So yes, I live with a fear, and I'm working on it. Not by suppressing it, but by countering it.

 

[Simon R Galley]

Dear Jessestr,

Photo film and paper is a very important medium ( be it colour or monochrome ).

Many people have contributed to this thread with very valid points.

Photography, especially film photography ( I'm talking now about monochrome ) is a 'niche', and always was in as much as the mass market ( everyone who actually took photographs who were not 'involved' within an artistic or creative bent ) and we are now left with a passionate, dedicated, knowledgeable and creative group of photographers young and old, professional or hobbyist, across a huge spectrum from education to the highest level of photo fine art. That market has a size and a value that can sustain the manufacture of ultra high quality film and silver gelatin paper from a 'range' of manufacturers. Even more importantly it has role to play within the context of photography going back to its origins, our type of photography is very IMPORTANT, what we create will last and as such has implications from a social history perspective to the preservation of the 'art' of 'real' photography.

So what you do is important, and whatever you do DO NOT WORRY silver film and paper will be around for many, many decades.

Simon ILFORD Photo / HARMAN technology Limited

 

[RalphLambrecht]

you words in God's ear, Simon.extremely well put responce btw.

 

[RalphLambrecht]

Just nick-picking, but it is HarmAn. If you go to the Ilford Photo site, you'll learned where the name comes from.

whatever you say,can and will be used against you

 

[Jessestr]

Dear Jessestr,

Photo film and paper is a very important medium ( be it colour or monochrome ).

Many people have contributed to this thread with very valid points.

Photography, especially film photography ( I'm talking now about monochrome ) is a 'niche', and always was in as much as the mass market ( everyone who actually took photographs who were not 'involved' within an artistic or creative bent ) and we are now left with a passionate, dedicated, knowledgeable and creative group of photographers young and old, professional or hobbyist, across a huge spectrum from education to the highest level of photo fine art. That market has a size and a value that can sustain the manufacture of ultra high quality film and silver gelatin paper from a 'range' of manufacturers. Even more importantly it has role to play within the context of photography going back to its origins, our type of photography is very IMPORTANT, what we create will last and as such has implications from a social history perspective to the preservation of the 'art' of 'real' photography.

So what you do is important, and whatever you do DO NOT WORRY silver film and paper will be around for many, many decades.

Simon ILFORD Photo / HARMAN technology Limited

Well, thanks for answering! Maybe I should think and worry less.
Either way, I'll continue what I'm doing with getting more people involved. And thanks for your comment (and everyone else's comment).

I really appreciate it.

 

[PKM-25]

So what you do is important, and whatever you do DO NOT WORRY silver film and paper will be around for many, many decades.

This is the bottom line, be positive, confident that monochrome analog materials will outlive even digital as we currently know it. There is simply no reason at this point to even be skeptical, it's an exciting future to behold, not even digital camera makers have it this good!

If one worries all the time, gets all too tied up into the nuts and bolts of what films are here and which ones are gone, about to be gone, how much they cost, then that translates into skepticism. And that in turn, could make a possible film newcomer or one who is returning to it after a digital hiatus, another skeptic.

I engage people into the B&W analog realm by being 100% positive about my future with it. They in turn, feed off of my passion and excitement. This is why I really push the notion of avoiding industry topics with are overly critical or negative tones, being positive simply works!

 

[ntenny]

Kodak, like all other analog film-related companies (both equipment and supplies) lost the vast majority of their customers and revenue to digital photography years ago. And the number one remaining film consumer fear since that happened has been the loss of sustainability of whatever analog products each were still using.

That's been the driving, highly emotional bottom line concern for everyone now for years. It's what keeps them awake at night. It's what dominates the conversations here on APUG. It's what makes them think long and hard about where to spend their film photography money. That fear is everywhere. And only getting worse as time goes by.

Well said. Certainly no one in this picture is outside their *rights* or failing to meet some sort of legal obligation!

At the same time, I think the presence of Ilford in the person of Simon Galley, and Adox in the person of Mirko, is rather clearly successful at allaying the fear as it relates to those companies. You don't see people worrying about the prospect of FP4+ suddenly being yanked out from under them without warning. And, you know, if I were in the analog photo business and wanted to keep my customers sufficiently reassured that they were comfortable continuing to throw money at me, I'd take note of that effect.

Well, Kodak Alaris are a large company in a state of transition, so I'm not surprised if they simply haven't lit on the question "hey, should we have someone on APUG?", but in any case that lack of visibility does leave many of us with worries we don't have about Ilford. I don't think that's irrational or inappropriate---and neither of the two responses "shoot TX while ya got it" or "switch to Ilford now to avoid a panic-changeover later" seems unreasonable.

OK, the third response---"freak out publicly about it on the internet"---is a little unreasonable. But that seems to be human nature doing its thing.

-NT

 

[PKM-25]

but in any case that lack of visibility does leave many of us with worries we don't have about Ilford.
-

I highly doubt it is as many people as some might like to believe, for example, I know a lot of people who shoot analog materials who are not even on this site, they are not worried, they just create great work. Now if you mean "Many of us" in terms of the two dozen most prolific posters on APUG, well then it might *seem* like a lot, when it is still not...

 

[Jessestr]

This is the bottom line, be positive, confident that monochrome analog materials will outlive even digital as we currently know it. There is simply no reason at this point to even be skeptical, it's an exciting future to behold, not even digital camera makers have it this good!

If one worries all the time, gets all too tied up into the nuts and bolts of what films are here and which ones are gone, about to be gone, how much they cost, then that translates into skepticism. And that in turn, could make a possible film newcomer or one who is returning to it after a digital hiatus, another skeptic.

I engage people into the B&W analog realm by being 100% positive about my future with it. They in turn, feed off of my passion and excitement. This is why I really push the notion of avoiding industry topics with are overly critical or negative tones, being positive simply works!

I like the attitude! Maybe I should start giving those people more positive energy too, and just stop worrying about it.

 

[Roger Cole]

Dear Jessestr,

Photo film and paper is a very important medium ( be it colour or monochrome ).

Many people have contributed to this thread with very valid points.

Photography, especially film photography ( I'm talking now about monochrome ) is a 'niche', and always was in as much as the mass market ( everyone who actually took photographs who were not 'involved' within an artistic or creative bent ) and we are now left with a passionate, dedicated, knowledgeable and creative group of photographers young and old, professional or hobbyist, across a huge spectrum from education to the highest level of photo fine art. That market has a size and a value that can sustain the manufacture of ultra high quality film and silver gelatin paper from a 'range' of manufacturers. Even more importantly it has role to play within the context of photography going back to its origins, our type of photography is very IMPORTANT, what we create will last and as such has implications from a social history perspective to the preservation of the 'art' of 'real' photography.

So what you do is important, and whatever you do DO NOT WORRY silver film and paper will be around for many, many decades.

Simon ILFORD Photo / HARMAN technology Limited

Post of the year, maybe the decade!

 

[darkosaric]

Post of the year, maybe the decade!

I was thinking that this should be put in some manifest of something

 

[miha]

I highly doubt it is as many people as some might like to believe, for example, I know a lot of people who shoot analog materials who are not even on this site, they are not worried, they just create great work. Now if you mean "Many of us" in terms of the two dozen most prolific posters on APUG, well then it might *seem* like a lot, when it is still not...

+1

 

[madgardener]

It's good to know that black and white film will last, but what about color? I could move to *igital if I had to, it's not my first choice. My personal favorite is E-6, and that is most definitely in danger of disappearing.

 

[Jessestr]

It's good to know that black and white film will last, but what about color? I could move to *igital if I had to, it's not my first choice. My personal favorite is E-6, and that is most definitely in danger of disappearing.

Most f the people I know shoot color. I'm the only one of my friends who shoot black & white all the time. Sometimes color.
So I guess there's a big market in color too because of the wedding photographers.

 

[removed account4]

I like the attitude! Maybe I should start giving those people more positive energy too, and just stop worrying about it.

+1

 

[Xmas]

Most f the people I know shoot color. I'm the only one of my friends who shoot black & white all the time. Sometimes color.
So I guess there's a big market in color too because of the wedding photographers.

Our wedding photogs are dropping like flies after being sprayed with nerve gas. Most brides have the camphone shots of the guests emailed to them before flying away for honeymoon. All the Wphotogs I know did/do dvideo or digital stills, e.g. Leica M9, so top end of market brides marrying footballers, etc. It was absent last year maybe it has picked up with housing market.

Ive not seen a film photog at a wedding for years.

My last colour film was one agfa vista in 2013.

 

[Jessestr]

Our wedding photogs are dropping like flies after being sprayed with nerve gas. Most brides have the camphone shots of the guests emailed to them before flying away for honeymoon. All the Wphotogs I know did/do dvideo or digital stills, e.g. Leica M9, so top end of market brides marrying footballers, etc. It was absent last year maybe it has picked up with housing market.

Ive not seen a film photog at a wedding for years.

My last colour film was one agfa vista in 2013.

I know actually a lot of wedding photogs that shoot film only. And also a lot who are shooting hybrid and now switching to film only...

 

[pentaxuser]

We really do need to keep a sense of reality about what APUG can do about the future of film and about what difference, for instance, Ilford's contact with us makes to film's "bottom line".

I welcome Simon Galley's contact with us. It is helpful and it may help Ilford promote the use of Ilford products but we need to ask ourselves what would happen if KA and Fuji for instance had the same presence here.

Would all of us buy more film of all three producers and if so in sufficient quantities to make a significant difference or would some of us switch back to Fuji and KA and possibly damage Ilford's volume of sales?

If Ilford were contemplating dropping a certain product would we be told sufficiently in advance in the hope that we could "turn things around for Ilford" Do we really believe that Ilford believes we, on APUG, can increase our buying power to that extent?

If the worst were to happen and Ilford were having to contemplate the possibility but not the absolute certainty of shutting down, how much in advance would we be told? There might be good reasons why Ilford would keep the possibility of such an outcome under wraps. In such a scenario neither Ilford not any other company might keep us "in the loop". We are simply customers, not shareholdes or company executives charged with arriving at the best outcome for that company or its employees. In that company law sense we are not "in it together" with Simon or Ilford or any other film company

I use film because I like to and it suits me but if I had to increase my "buy" of film products by a lot to save "film and it related products" I doubt if I would do it. My life involves too many other important and competing expenditures.

There may be others here who would "do whatever it takes" to keep the film industry alive, even at the expense of other necessary expenditure on family, housing etc and good luck to them but the "diehards" do need to ask themselves if there is anything like enough of them to make the kind of difference that in the worst case scenario would be necessary.

We're back to the question of maintaining a sense of reality.

pentaxuser

 

[darkosaric]

We are simply customers

Yes and no. I think that Adox and Ilford are looking at as not as just customers - but also as a partners in mutual benefit. I am saying this because Mirko and Simon are also one of us - they shot B&W, develop silver gelatin prints - they have more than just profit in this. They have love for this - same as we.

 

[ntenny]

Yes and no. I think that Adox and Ilford are looking at as not as just customers - but also as a partners in mutual benefit. I am saying this because Mirko and Simon are also one of us - they shot B&W, develop silver gelatin prints - they have more than just profit in this. They have love for this - same as we.

...and as privately-held companies, Ilford and Adox have more flexibility to engage in long-term thinking and/or "labor of love" activities than a public company would.

But let's not be unrealistic---Ilford wouldn't be spending money to send Simon here if they didn't see it as a business benefit. Which cuts both ways in terms of a "sense of reality"; on the one hand, it proves that they think APUG is a significant enough market and source of visibility to justify spending money on it, and on the other, it means that their support isn't a purely altruistic activity that will always put our interests first.

I can't prove a thing about this, but I still think that if HP5+ and TX were in danger of extinction (WHICH I DON'T BELIEVE THEY ARE; THIS IS A HYPOTHETICAL), we'd have a better opportunity to see the writing on the wall for the former. I'm not sure what we'd *do* about it, exactly, but even in case of catastrophe I guess we'd rather have a warning than not.

-NT

 

[Trask]

Speaking of Adox film -- are any of Adox's current 35mm films available in bulk? I don't see it on Adox's store, but maybe I'm missing it somewhere.