An ebay category / ethical question

[Old-N-Feeble]

someone can post something in a regular category and say they don't know if it works
that is why you ask questions about condition &c
and ask them, if you buy it, if it doesn't work, since they don't know one way or another,
can you return it for a refund.
not sure why it is unethical listing something in a "regular category" instead of parts/repair/broken if you don't know

i've contacted a seller by phone ( they are a camera store ) when they said they were selling a lens from an estate sale
and didn't know if it worked &c and they tested it with me on the phone and it didnt' work .. when i asked them
if they would please revise their description so people would know it was broken and untested/not sure if it worked anymore
the guy called me harsh names unlisted it, and relisted it 5x his then bid-price ( it was at 300$ he relisted it at 1500$ )
knowing full well it was broken and tested, with the same "not sure if it works, untested, bought from an estate sale"
description..
THAT is not the same thing as you are asking ...

I hope you flagged those items and reported that seller to eBay.

 

[Old-N-Feeble]

The few times that I have bought items that say untested on eBay I have sent the seller a message asking to be able to return it (with me paying shipping) if the items is non functional or functioning but unusable. All but one have been happy to sell me the item and as it turns out they worked fine (most notably my Arax 60 kit). The one seller who didn't want to sell me the item (point and shoot) couldn't even be bothered to buy a battery an test if it powered on so it was probably good that I "missed out" on that one.

Avoid rude and/or unhelpful sellers... always.

 

[Old-N-Feeble]

Not to detail the thread but I have a question about ebay returns. Say a seller sells something (an X-pan since it was mentioned previously) and does not offer a return on the item. Below where the it says "return" is:

Guarantee:
Money Back Guarantee | See details- opens in a new window or tab
Get the item you ordered or get your money back.
Covers your purchase price and original shipping.

Can a buyer still return an item using the ebay guarantee if the seller doesn't not except returns? I've always been curious about this.

FWIW I won't typically buy from someone who doesn't offer returns though I have seen a few items that i'd like and seriously thought about it.

On eBay there is, in practice, no such thing as "as is" or "no returns". All a buyer must do is file an "item not as described" case. The seller is forced to accept the return and refund the full payment including original shipping plus provide a label for return shipping. If the seller refuses or doesn't reply, the buyer asks eBay to intervene... and eBay will nearly always side with the buyer unless verifiable facts are overwhelmingly in the favor of the seller. Also, if the seller doesn't comply or fails to reply, the buyer keeps the item and receives a full refund anyway. The seller might offer a partial refund or allow return minus shipping costs but if the buyer isn't happy with that, they can ask eBay to step in and again, eBay will side with the buyer. Fortunately, I don't recall ever having a buyer do this to me.

So overall, I think most buyers are honest... or... they're unaware they can abuse eBay policy in that way.

 

[Vonder]

If an item is listed as "used" it's supposed to be working. Otherwise you list as "for parts or repair". I've never had a problem getting my money back if I use that as a guideline. OTOH I just got a camera from ebay seller midwestphotoexchange (the guys that were robbed recently) and I discovered they deliberately mislead me. No mention of, nor photos of, the camera interior, which was full of gunk from deteriorated seals. I feel they mislead me and I've returned the item for refund and will leave negative feedback. This was clearly deceptive, in my eyes.

 

[Old-N-Feeble]

Let's say it is but it's a case of buyers regret and the buyer claims it isn't working. I keep reading eBay always sides with the buyer but what (if any) protection does a seller have in a case like this?

Very little to none... unless the buyer makes a grave error and writes something indicating his/her nefarious intent, within eBay's messaging system. If an eBay agent is asked to read those comments and if they're clearly written to expose improper actions from the buyer then there's a very good chance eBay will side with the seller. Otherwise, the seller is screwed.

 

[Old-N-Feeble]

eBay does have "vintage photography" and "photography" sections but those bear no relationship to whether the items within are working or not.

A vintage camera 100 years old might be working perfectly. A 6 month old camera might be dead. What you look at is the description. Many people selling cameras are doing so having inherited them or found them in the attic. They are often not the original owners and are not interested in cameras....and necessarily do not always know how to test them. If they're not into film, one cannot reasonably expect them to spend money on putting a roll of film through and developing it before sale. Indeed many people believe that even 120 and 35mm are no longer available.

When buying a camera listed as "working" or at least not listed as "parts"...I do check the description carefully. You can generally tell by the wording used and quality of photographs of the offered item whether the vendor is au fait with cameras or not.

Similarly with cameras offered as "parts/not working" when the seller says they are untested...it's possible that the camera works.

As for light seals, I have been lucky but I would expect any camera much over 20 years to have a good chance that the seals will have begun perishing even if it's sat in it's box since it was bought. I would say a camera could be described as "NOS" in it's box but have faults due to the passage of time.

With shutter speeds...again we are talking normal wear and tear rather than outright damage or a broken camera if they are "in the ballpark" after 30 years. Most people won't have the equipment to test the shutter speeds anyway other than looking and observing that 1/200 seems a lot quicker than 1/25.

If it ain't explicitly stated that it's been tested and works....then assume it might have faults that are not apparent upon examination by a non-expert.

You gamble buying something second hand. Personally if I buy a camera and it isn't fully functioning I tend to clean it up, do what I can to make it work better and sell it on with an accurate description of the faults. Generally I get my money back because when buying an older camera I will only pay what I can easily afford to lose should it turn out not to work at all. One can always get a fiver for a nice looking camera/body even if it doesn't work.

Unless I felt the description had been fraudulent, I would never return a camera. Chances are the inexpert sellers will toss them away upon return rather than try again....so a potentially repairable camera has been lost.

When I sell cameras, I do put a test roll of film through first if I haven't actually used the camera within the last six months...but that costs me pennies to load 6 frames of bulk film and hand develop. A non-enthusiast at best would be throwing $10 or £10 at buying the cheapest C41 film and getting it developed...often more than they expect to raise in selling the camera.

So....I personally would not return a camera unless I felt the written description was deliberately inaccurate or certainly misleading. If a camera sold as "working" has a few very minor faults such as the light seals are on the way out (might not always be picked up even when tested with film) and the shutter speeds are a little sluggish....I can still use the camera so I am not fussed.

Bravo brother... exactly how I do it.

 

[MrBrowning]

On eBay there is, in practice, no such thing as "as is" or "no returns". All I buyer must do is file an "item not as described" case. The seller is forced to accept the return and refund the full payment including original shipping plus provide a label for return shipping. If the seller refuses or doesn't reply, the buyer asks eBay to intervene... and eBay will nearly always side with the buyer unless verifiable facts are overwhelmingly in the favor of the seller. The seller might offer a partial refund or allow return minus shipping costs but if the buyer isn't happy with that, they can ask eBay to step in and again, will side with the buyer. Fortunately, I don't recall ever having a buyer do this to me.

So overall, I think most buyers are honest... or... they're unaware they can abuse eBay policy in that way.

Very little to none... unless the buyer makes a grave error and writes something indicating his/her nefarious intent, within eBay's messaging system. If an eBay agent is asked to read those comments and if they're clearly written to expose improper actions from the buyer then there's a very good chance eBay will side with the seller. Otherwise, the seller is screwed.

Thanks for that. I've seen some ebay sellers in some of the camera groups on Facebook talking about getting scammed (A camera sold, return requested because it was supposedly not as described and a different camera being returned other than the one purchased - sometimes even a different brand). Seeing things like that are making me want not want to sell anything of any real value there. I realize most buyers are good people just as most sellers but with my luck i'd get stuck with one of the not so honest buyers if I were to sell a high value item.

 

[MrBrowning]

Avoid rude and/or unhelpful sellers... always.

+1

 

[Alan Gales]

Not everyone has a shutter speed tester, so unless is has been shutter speed tested its not tested even though it worked fine for 5000 rolls? you can argue your bs semantics all day but it all boils down to buying under false pretenses is FRAUD.

But Fstop, the shutter speeds sound good to my ears!

I figure any lens I buy off Ebay, the shutter needs a CLA if it does not come with a written CLA in the auction. When it arrives in the mail I test the shutter with a shutter speed tester and am pleasantly surprised if it is accurate.

When selling lenses I tried testing the shutters and listing my results in the auction. Even if a large format shutter was just a 1/2 stop off on a couple of the fast speeds I would get less money from the auction. I quit testing them and went back to listing that the shutter works but was not professionally tested. My profits went back up. Any lens that needed a CLA I would of course mention that in the auction.

 

[Alan Gales]

Thanks for that. I've seen some ebay sellers in some of the camera groups on Facebook talking about getting scammed (A camera sold, return requested because it was supposedly not as described and a different camera being returned other than the one purchased - sometimes even a different brand). Seeing things like that are making me want not want to sell anything of any real value there. I realize most buyers are good people just as most sellers but with my luck i'd get stuck with one of the not so honest buyers if I were to sell a high value item.

I've heard horror stories of Sellers selling rare brass large format lenses for over $2000 over seas. The mail service in that country would say it was delivered but the Buyer would lie and claim that they never got it. Ebay would side with the Buyer and the Seller would have to refund the Buyer and be out the lens.

Anything real expensive I would only sell in the U.S. or Canada. In fact most cameras I would only sell to U.S. or Canadian buyers because I didn't trust the camera not getting damaged in shipping. Customs in some countries can be terrible. I once shipped a Hasselblad back to someone overseas using that new Ebay Global shipping program. The fellow wasn't home so it was shipped back to me. When I received it the bubble wrap was torn open and barely on the film back and half the shipping peanuts were missing from going through Customs. Fortunately, the Buyer still wanted the back so I shipped it back to him at his expense.

 

[Old-N-Feeble]

Thanks for that. I've seen some ebay sellers in some of the camera groups on Facebook talking about getting scammed (A camera sold, return requested because it was supposedly not as described and a different camera being returned other than the one purchased - sometimes even a different brand). Seeing things like that are making me want not want to sell anything of any real value there. I realize most buyers are good people just as most sellers but with my luck i'd get stuck with one of the not so honest buyers if I were to sell a high value item.

One of my neighbors here told me his brother bought some expensive motorcycle parts via eBay and returned them for a refund. Only what he shipped back was an equal weight of rocks and stones. He thought it was funny. That joker is no longer someone I associate with. Anyway, in that instance, the seller didn't (or couldn't) open the box in front of the delivery person so he had no proof that he was scammed by the buyer. The seller was forced to refund the full payment plus two-way shipping... and the shipping cost was quite high for that large heavy box. Ever since I heard that story I try to always open packages while the carrier watches. If anything is obviously wrong I ask the carrier to make note of it.

 

[Old-N-Feeble]

But Fstop, the shutter speeds sound good to my ears!

I figure any lens I buy off Ebay, the shutter needs a CLA if it does not come with a written CLA in the auction. When it arrives in the mail I test the shutter with a shutter speed tester and am pleasantly surprised if it is accurate.

When selling lenses I tried testing the shutters and listing my results in the auction. Even if a large format shutter was just a 1/2 stop off on a couple of the fast speeds I would get less money from the auction. I quit testing them and went back to listing that the shutter works but was not professionally tested. My profits went back up. Any lens that needed a CLA I would of course mention that in the auction.

Alan, the top two speeds on every shutter are always slower than indicated by the dial... always... even on factory-new shutters. As they age, the top speeds slow even more and without replacing the weakening springs with new ones, can't be adjusted faster. IMO, those fast speeds are silly on large format lenses anyway. They make more sense on 135 and (maybe) 120 formats.

 

[removed account4]

I hope you flagged those items and reported that seller to eBay.

i did, and ebay did NOTHING
its not for sale anymore it seems ...
( listing removed after IDK 12 month )
if it sold, i feel badly for the person who bought it ..

 

[MrBrowning]

I've heard horror stories of Sellers selling rare brass large format lenses for over $2000 over seas. The mail service in that country would say it was delivered but the Buyer would lie and claim that they never got it. Ebay would side with the Buyer and the Seller would have to refund the Buyer and be out the lens.

Anything real expensive I would only sell in the U.S. or Canada. In fact most cameras I would only sell to U.S. or Canadian buyers because I didn't trust the camera not getting damaged in shipping. Customs in some countries can be terrible. I once shipped a Hasselblad back to someone overseas using that new Ebay Global shipping program. The fellow wasn't home so it was shipped back to me. When I received it the bubble wrap was torn open and barely on the film back and half the shipping peanuts were missing from going through Customs. Fortunately, the Buyer still wanted the back so I shipped it back to him at his expense.

One of my neighbors here told me his brother bought some expensive motorcycle parts via eBay and returned them for a refund. Only what he shipped back was an equal weight of rocks and stones. He thought it was funny. That joker is no longer someone I associate with. Anyway, in that instance, the seller didn't (or couldn't) open the box in front of the delivery person so he had no proof that he was scammed by the buyer. The seller was forced to refund the full payment plus two-way shipping... and the shipping cost was quite high for that large heavy box. Ever since I heard that story I try to always open packages while the carrier watches. If anything is obviously wrong I ask the carrier to make note of it.

In both cases mentioned above it proves the point that some people really suck.

As for Old-N-Feeble's story. That man needs a good swift kick to the danglies.

 

[Alan Gales]

Alan, the top two speeds on every shutter are always slower than indicated by the dial... always... even on factory-new shutters. As they age, the top speeds slow even more and without replacing the weakening springs with new ones, can't be adjusted faster. IMO, those fast speeds are silly on large format lenses anyway. They make more sense on 135 and (maybe) 120 formats.

Yeah, I know. Try telling that to some Ebay buyers though! I'm serious. My lenses started selling for lower than average Ebay prices. I couldn't believe it. I thought with an actual shutter speed test it would help and not hurt my sales!

I agree with you. I don't use the fast speeds either.

 

[Old-N-Feeble]

i did, and ebay did NOTHING

When it comes to flagging items as scams and/or reporting suspicious/nefarious sellers, I've had similar experiences. That's one problem eBay refuses to properly address.

 

[Diapositivo]

When we die, our relatives, heirs will sell our equipment on eBay without minimally understanding whether it works, how good or bad is its condition etc.
It is entirely possible that very good cameras end up sold "as is" for little money.
Just don't value any "as is" camera or lens for the value that it could have if it were in good condition.

I bought some vintage cameras for little money with this system and was satisfied with it. Actually "as is" auctions can be very interesting. Some people just want to clear the crawl space.

 

[Old-N-Feeble]

Yes, that's true. I have no one to whom I'm overly concerned about leaving anything to. Both my brothers are lying cheating selfish greedy thieves... we don't communicate anymore. My son was turned against me by my hateful abusive ex wife. I suppose there's some comfort that no one will grieve when I croak and the worry of conserving/saving for others is very minimal.

That stated, I have neighbors who will probably raid my house when I die and pawn everything for next to nothing and throw what they can't pawn into the dumpster. After I'm dead I guess it really doesn't matter much. LOL!!

 

[Alan Gales]

Yes, that's true. I have no one to whom I'm overly concerned about leaving anything to. Both my brothers are lying cheating selfish greedy thieves... we don't communicate anymore. My son was turned against me by my hateful abusive ex wife. I suppose there's some comfort that no one will grieve when I croak and the worry of conserving/saving for others is very minimal.

That stated, I have neighbors who will probably raid my house when I die and pawn everything for next to nothing and throw what they can't pawn into the dumpster. After I'm dead I guess it really doesn't matter much. LOL!!

Hey Mike. Why don't you find a young pretty something and start over. Ronnie Wood just had twins and he's an old ugly dude!

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbi...-wife-Sally-present-twin-daughters-world.html

 

[quixotic]

Anything real expensive I would only sell in the U.S. or Canada.

Or put in a massive exclusion list for shipping: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Nikon-F3-wi...553898?hash=item283036416a:g:9TMAAOSww3tY4XPy

 

[Old-N-Feeble]

Hey Mike. Why don't you find a young pretty something and start over. Ronnie Wood just had twins and he's an old ugly dude!

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbi...-wife-Sally-present-twin-daughters-world.html

Oh... how I wish I could. But my health continues to deteriorate and my income is a small fraction of what it once was and my inability to move made me fat... not to mention that some important stuff doesn't work anymore.

Sorry... back to the original topic.

 

[Old-N-Feeble]

Or put in a massive exclusion list for shipping: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Nikon-F3-wi...553898?hash=item283036416a:g:9TMAAOSww3tY4XPy

Right, I have a lengthy exclusion list.

 

[kingbuzzie]

I'm a power seller I know the rules.... working and tested are two different things. Shutters can work, they may be off 1/2 stop and still work.

If working and tested are seperate, are you saying it can be both untested and working? Then if I buy a untested camera and it doesn't work I can safely send it back because it isn't as described. How's that fraud then?

 

[MrBrowning]

If working and tested are seperate, are you saying it can be both untested and working? Then if I buy a untested camera and it doesn't work I can safely send it back because it isn't as described. How's that fraud then?

It's Schrodinger's camera. If it is untested you can say it is both working and not working at the same time. Which means it can be sold as working untested. However once it is tested and found not to work it must be listed for parts. I'm pretty sure that's in eBay's terms somewhere.

 

[kingbuzzie]

It's Schrodinger's camera. If it is untested you can say it is both working and not working at the same time. Which means it can be sold as working untested. However once it is tested and found not to work it must be listed for parts. I'm pretty sure that's in eBay's terms somewhere.

Well maybe I shouldn't feel so bad about returning a broken camera if the seller is basically it both works and doesn't to cover both senarios.