An alternative way to assess Digital versus Optical image creation?

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chuck94022

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As a film user (as well as, I admit, a digital user), I have read many, many articles on digital versus film quality. Every single article first converts the film to the digital domain by scanning, and then compares the results.

I've come to the conclusion that this can't be right. Film is not a digital recording form, and any scan, at any level, is only an approximation of what has been recorded. Because scanners are discrete systems (versus continuous, analog systems), samples of the film content are necessarily slotted to the closest digital value. Worse, very fine detail is averaged over the area of a much larger sampling sensor, causing a loss of information. This information loss takes many forms, and one of these is the amplification of noisy detail like grain.

Authors of these reviews will say that this doesn't matter, because the human eye can't perceive such differences anyway. And yet, they pixel peep the results, which the human eye can't do at normal viewing distances, and present a result.

I wonder if there is a better way. I'd like to propose an approach that would, on the film side, require the services of a skilled printer. This eliminates me, because at the moment I have no ability to print optically in my darkroom (no enlarger).

In essence, the film should not be scanned. It should be processed and printed optically.

A scene (the Air Force target could be used, but my, how boring) should be chosen with plenty of fine detail. An image should be captured with a film camera and an equivalent digital camera. Ideally, the film and digital cameras would be able to share a lens, so that the lens is taken out of the equation as a variable.

A 100% crop of the digital image, at native printer resolution (e.g., 300 ppi), should be sent to a high quality ink jet printer, printing at, say, 8x10 or perhaps 4x6. The printer should lose no image detail from the original digital capture, thus the need for a crop.

Once the digital crop has been established, an optical enlargement of the film should be made using a high quality enlarger with a professional level lens, operated by a skilled print maker. The enlargement should capture the exact same crop of the image, at the exact same size.

The resulting prints should be compared for fine detail capture, as well as any other metrics desired. These prints could be scanned for viewing on the web, but of course, the final evaluation should be done by comparing the actual prints, in controlled light, perhaps with a loupe if needed.

Has this ever been done? It seems to me that this is the only truly fair way to compare film to a digital process.
 

pschwart

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1) yes, it all about the print quality
2) yes, it's been done
3) there are so many variables in the digital and wet darkroom, so does it really matter? See #1 :smile:
 

OzJohn

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1) yes, it all about the print quality
2) yes, it's been done
3) there are so many variables in the digital and wet darkroom, so does it really matter? See #1 :smile:

Agree. They are two different ways of producing the same end product. Both have strengths and weaknesses. Without wishing to offend the original poster, these types of discussions are most often the province of folk who enjoy photographing and examining test targets more than they do taking and making real pictures. OzJohn
 
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chuck94022

chuck94022

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Oh, I'm not offended, John. (I don't even own a test target.) This thought came last night as I was thinking and drinking (bad combination, I know...) ;-)

I had been reading the discussion of the Reflecta scanner elsewhere on the forum, and saw that for 35mm scans it didn't seem particularly better than my Epson 750, at least in the post author's scans. That led me to recalling reviews I'd seen, then of course those digital versus film things came to mind. A few slurps of wine later, and the above post appeared.

Philip, can you point me to a review where this has been done? I'm just curious. I happen to be very happy with the film images I get, even from 35mm scanned with my Epson. (I'm happier of course with my MF and LF scans on that unit, and would be even happier if I was back in the US with access to a wet darkroom for printing... I wouldn't have to talk about wet prints, I could just make them.)
 

pellicle

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Hi Chuck

here is my assessment of print quality of various scan methods

in my view ...: Nikon, Noritsu, Epson: a comparison of scans and prints

and one where I undertook images of the same thing with digital and film.

in my view ...: digital vs (35mm) film, scans screens and prints

Essentially I found that for low contrast subjects digital is the favored capture medium, but for higher contrast subject negative works better. Slide is out in the cold for me as having all of the disadvantages of film (meaning scanning) and none of the advantages of negative (meaning contrast / tonal range).
 

Pioneer

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Thanks Pellicle, I like your work. Thanks for posting the links to your blog articles here.

As originally posted, I think that a true analogue vs digital comparison is certainly possible, but it is really something you have to do in person, not via computer. Whenever any attempt is made to show the comparisons on a computer it becomes necessary to digitize the analogue component. Besides, a comparison of images looked at on a small laptop screen is really not telling you much. I personally believe that it is very difficult to claim that a digitally captured, manipulated and printed image is better or worse than an analogue image that is enlarged and printed, particularly when compared under the same light at the original printed size. I also believe that any discussion regarding digital vs 35mm film that uses resolution as the only argument is only comparing a very small piece of the complete pie.
 

pschwart

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Agree. They are two different ways of producing the same end product. Both have strengths and weaknesses. Without wishing to offend the original poster, these types of discussions are most often the province of folk who enjoy photographing and examining test targets more than they do taking and making real pictures. OzJohn
Technology is far more commonly discussed on DPUG than photography:tongue:
 

pellicle

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Hi

.. Thanks for posting the links to your blog articles here.

totally welcome.

As originally posted, I think that a true analogue vs digital comparison is certainly possible, but it is really something you have to do in person, not via computer.

exactly, yet for reasons unknown to me most don't actually do that, instead ruminating on various fora (starting with rec.photo I guess) and moving on through the ages.

Its not after all hard to do ... perhaps its because people can't imagine how to set up a structured test.

I posted my digital photos of photos and the files they came from to make it clearer to people who don't want to be bothered or to give them ideas on how to run their own tests ...

Besides, a comparison of images looked at on a small laptop screen is really not telling you much.

well it can ... it depends on what experience you have in comparing that to the printed image. Especially if you have calibrated your workspace it should tell you a lot.

its a bit like the test gear I used as an electronics tech ... an oscilloscope can't tell you much if you don't know what you're looking at :smile:

I also believe that any discussion regarding digital vs 35mm film that uses resolution as the only argument is only comparing a very small piece of the complete pie.

exactly. For instance ... shooting into the sun:

Digital (even as a HDRI)
P1070108%7E12.jpg


35mm negative film
kymiJokiSnow3.jpg


sure they're different shots, but no blowouts on the neg :smile:

having said that, a digital can do stuff that a neg can't
4144523380_4683d11cc5.jpg


so there's room for more than just a hammer in my tool bag

anyway, if you like the picture then alls good :smile:
 

pellicle

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Technology is far more commonly discussed on DPUG than photography:tongue:

I almost never discuss photography ... way too subjective :munch:

but ok ... here's a go.

I visited a cathedral in Tampere where a famous Finnish artist had done the interior paintings. I love his work and wanted to record the interior of the cathedral.

http://cjeastwd.blogspot.com.au/2009/11/cathedral-at-tampere.html

I wanted to capture the interior subtle lighting and its stained glass and also the sence of the architecture.

I liked the results of applying my technical knowledge to the task so that I cam out with images I was pleased with aesthetically that were not technical failures.

gosh ... I just brought that round to technical stuff again ;-)
 
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Zygomorph

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Generally agreed.

I think it's ridiculous how obsessed people get with the technology, but don't bother to learn anything substantial about the technology itself. Being *good* at scanning your own film is mainly difficult if you spend more time reading posts on internet fora than reading technical papers from Kodak or the ICC (the people who INVENTED the stuff).

IMHO. ;-)
 

Les Sarile

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I have had 20" X 30" optical prints made from various 35mm films to compare with my scanning results - resolution, color and latitude. The printed material is the lowest common demoninator as it has no latitude, color dependant on the operator and not even 20" X 30" super glossy can capture the resolution of 35mm film scanned with a Coolscan.

Regarding resolution, it is easy enough to optically confirm what is captured on film vs what your scanner can capture - you simply need enough optical magnification. However, you also need to capture on film the information and just as important, the scene has to have enough distinguishable detail so that you will know the limit.

In the test results below, I used a X wide by 4 high arrangement of ISO12233 res charts as shown in the bottom left. I then cropped and provided 100% of the center portions using very low compression. All results are therefore multiplied by 4.

  • Second image up is the crop from my 14.6MP K20D + manual focus Pentax M 50mm F4 macro lens + Pentax auto bellows from the full frame shot of 35mm Kodak Techpan shot at ISO 25 and processed in Technidol.
  • Third image up is the crop from my 14.6MP K20D + manual focus Pentax M 50mm F4 macro lens shot of the 4 X 4 chart arrangement. It is pretty much the same as DPREVIEW K20D resolution results of about 2400LPH. Testing of all my Pentax lenses maxes out the K20D's sensor.
  • Fourth image up is the Coolscan 9000 scan of the center portion of the shot made on 35mm Kodak Techpan shot at ISO 25 and processed in Technidol using the Pentax LX + the same Pentax M 50mm F4 macro lens. As you can see, it clearly resolves much more than the 14.6MP K20D sensor. However there are two different resolutions - Vertical of 4000LPH and Horizontal of 3200LPH. For comparison, a 24.6MP Sony A900 is rated at 3700LPH.
  • The image on the right is a 4.5 optical magnification of the center portion of the full frame shot of 35mm Kodak Techpan shot at ISO 25 and processed in Technidol using my K20D and Pentax autobellows. This is 12.5 X 4 = 5000LPH. By comparison, the 36.3MP Nikon D800 tops the reschart at 3800LPH. The unfiltered D800E surpasses the 4000LPH chart used so we can't say where it reaches.

standard.jpg
Link to larger file -> K20D-Techpan-ISO12233 Reschart


Film has latitude spare - particulalry most all b&w and negatives. In the test below, I simply metered a gray card for an ideal meter and extended shutter durations until blownout. Unlike the represented digitals, I clearly need to extend the shutter duartions to get extinction on the films. Notice a little post work on the +10 Kodak Portra 400 and the results are still reasonable. Care to try on your digital(s) and send the results to me?

large.jpg

Link to larger image -> Latitude comparison


Practical applications of course include recovering both shadows and highlights as in the example below.

large.jpg

Link to larger image -> Kodak Portra 400 highlight and Shadow


Or, if you come upon a scene and don't have the appropriate ND filter to extend shutter times, you can simply recover in post. The scene below metered at 1/60 but I needed 1/2 to slow the water scene. I knew the film's characteristics (Kodak Ektar 100) and can get normal results using scanner's autoexposure and the most minor of post work.

large.jpg

Link to larger version -> Kodak Ektar 100
 
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