an airport to avoid

[gr82bart]

Fair point. But regardless, they should treat personal belongings with respect. A uniform does not give them carte blanc to damage equipment or nose through personal files. Neither does a uniform mean the public have to automatically kow-tow to it's occupant.

Agreed Andy,

I suspect what's happening is there is a lot of non-verbal communication going on between many travellers and the security personnel, immigration officer and/or customs agent. If people think and believe the agent is an idiot, they will treat them that way - intentionally or not (and vice-versa).

I have found most to be respectful of my equipment, but (innocently) ignorant of how to handle it. I don't blame them at all. I blame the policies and procedures (lack thereof mostly and idiotic ones) for having these people on the front lines. Too many inexperienced, underpaid, overworked, undereducated, disrespected by the public personnel on the front lines does not make for good security.

Regards, Art.

 

[gr82bart]

The more power you give to people on minimum wage, and the fewer penalties there are for their incivility, the worse this is going to get. It does not take long for incivility to deteriorate into something worse.

True Roger,

But civility is culturally based.

When I travel through LGA for example and the folks there are shouting - SHOUTING - directions at me, I don't see it as uncivil. It's the way people are there.

When I first went through this tiny airport near St Louis, one of the greeters was intent on ensuring I could find Chinese food in St Louis. She meant well, but my colleague thought it was rude (racist actually). Hey, I could have been the first Asian she's ever seen! I thought it was funny and endearing that she cared enough to see to it I ate properly. LOL

The bottom line is: Relax people. It's airport security, customs and immigration. What the hell are we expecting here? Seriously.

Regards, Art.

 

[Bromo33333]

Fair point. But regardless, they should treat personal belongings with respect. A uniform does not give them carte blanc to damage equipment or nose through personal files. Neither does a uniform mean the public have to automatically kow-tow to it's occupant.

Yes, they need to respect personal belongings, but how that respect is interpreted can make all the difference:

Right to damage equipment? You are right - they do not have the right to damage equipment - and if they do it is important to call their supervisor, you may be entitled to compensation.

Examine/Nose Through Personal Files? Unfortunately (and I don't like it either), they DO have that right. You give it up when you agree to travel. If you aren't comfortable with them seeing personal files, it is best to leave it home or mail it on ahead.

It is reality - and they aren't going to stop ever.

 

[copake_ham]

.... Too many inexperienced, underpaid, overworked, undereducated, disrespected by the public personnel on the front lines does not make for good security.

Regards, Art.

Art,

You're probably on to something here. I suspect that working the line is the entry-level spot for the TSA. I call it the "Express Checkout Lane Conundrum". Ever notice how many retailers put the new cashier on the Express lane? Which of course slows everything up and puts a lie to the very concept of "Express Lane".

I presume they do it because with a limited number of items per shopper they figure they'll limit their losses if the "newbie" screws up badly and gives out too much change!

 

[Andy K]

Yes, they need to respect personal belongings, but how that respect is interpreted can make all the difference:

Right to damage equipment? You are right - they do not have the right to damage equipment - and if they do it is important to call their supervisor, you may be entitled to compensation.

Examine/Nose Through Personal Files? Unfortunately (and I don't like it either), they DO have that right. You give it up when you agree to travel. If you aren't comfortable with them seeing personal files, it is best to leave it home or mail it on ahead.

It is reality - and they aren't going to stop ever.

They only have the right to switch equipment on to see if it is actually a PDA, laptop etc. They DO NOT have the right to then look through the content.

 

[copake_ham]

....

When I first went through this tiny airport near St Louis, one of the greeters was intent on ensuring I could find Chinese food in St Louis. She meant well, but my colleague thought it was rude (racist actually). Hey, I could have been the first Asian she's ever seen! I thought it was funny and endearing that she cared enough to see to it I ate properly. LOL



.....

Art,

Your anecdote brings to mind the scene in "My Cousin Vinny" where the actress playing Vinny's girlfriend steps out of the car upon their arrival in a podunk Southern town. Snapping her chewing gum, she says in her best Brooklynese accent "I betcha can't even get good Chinese here!"

 

[Bromo33333]

They only have the right to switch equipment on to see if it is actually a PDA, laptop etc. They DO NOT have the right to then look through the content.

Yes they do: from Dead Link Removed

"Can TSA search your hard drive's contents while going through security to board a plane (either domestic or international flight)?

From the 9th circuit's decision:

"Under the border search exception, the government may conduct routine searches of persons entering the United States without probable cause, reasonable suspicion, or a warrant. See United States v. Montoya de Hernandez, 473 U.S. 531, 538 (1985). For Fourth Amendment purposes, an international airport terminal is the “functional equivalent” of a border."

 

[Andy K]

Yes they do: from Dead Link Removed

"Can TSA search your hard drive's contents while going through security to board a plane (either domestic or international flight)?

From the 9th circuit's decision:

"Under the border search exception, the government may conduct routine searches of persons entering the United States without probable cause, reasonable suspicion, or a warrant. See United States v. Montoya de Hernandez, 473 U.S. 531, 538 (1985). For Fourth Amendment purposes, an international airport terminal is the “functional equivalent” of a border."

And people thought Stalin's Russia was totalitarian!

 

[Bromo33333]

And people thought Stalin's Russia was totalitarian!

I know people who lived in Russia during that time and afterwards - this is NOTHING compared to that. It may not feel right, and isn't great, but don't confuse airport security measures for totalitarianism.

 

[Andy K]

I know people who lived in Russia during that time and afterwards - this is NOTHING compared to that. It may not feel right, and isn't great, but don't confuse airport security measures for totalitarianism.

How many out of doors activities in the contemporary US do not need a permit or will not at some stage be questioned by 'the authorities'.

 

[Roger Hicks]

True Roger,
But civility is culturally based.

Fair enough. Risking smashing my Leica -- wouldn't you shout to warn someone that would happen unless they stopped? -- or forcing me to strip for a search and then treating me like a criminal because they had got it wrong, ISN'T culturally biased, though. As I said, two major episodes, one US, one UK, in 54 years isn't a high 'hit rate', but both officers (US 'security' and UK customs and excise) should have been a great deal more civil than they were.

As I say, maybe you've just been lucky. The fact that I have had no other significant problems with security or customs in 54 years argues that it's not a question of bad attitude on my part.

Cheers,

R.

 

[kb244]

And people thought Stalin's Russia was totalitarian!

I wonder if theres any differentiation between the rights from unlawful search and seizure, and that of violation of privacy. I mean I can understand searching the backs, making sure a device is what it is. But to go thru the pages of a book you are packing to see what notes you may have taken, or to check your text messages on your blackberry, or check your phone contacts I feel is still illegal (or should be).

 

[kb244]

Yes they do: from Dead Link Removed

"Can TSA search your hard drive's contents while going through security to board a plane (either domestic or international flight)?

From the 9th circuit's decision:

"Under the border search exception, the government may conduct routine searches of persons entering the United States without probable cause, reasonable suspicion, or a warrant. See United States v. Montoya de Hernandez, 473 U.S. 531, 538 (1985). For Fourth Amendment purposes, an international airport terminal is the “functional equivalent” of a border."

That law only applies for people coming into the united states, not leaving or traveling within.

 

[roteague]

That law only applies for people coming into the united states, not leaving or traveling within.

True, but there is just some level of privacy that should be afforded to everyone, including returning US citizens, immigrants, visitors, etc....

 

[copake_ham]

And people thought Stalin's Russia was totalitarian!

Oh, oh - looks like Andy's starting to get all wound up. Those here with weak hearts or fragile knees may want to leave now.

 

[gr82bart]

As I say, maybe you've just been lucky. The fact that I have had no other significant problems with security or customs in 54 years argues that it's not a question of bad attitude on my part.

Roger,

I think we are violently agreeing here.

Regards, Art.

 

[Andy K]

Oh, oh - looks like Andy's starting to get all wound up. Those here with weak hearts or fragile knees may want to leave now.

George, you're forgetting something. I'm English. We don't get wound up. We get moderately excited over sport, but politics isn't worth the extra heartbeats.

 

[copake_ham]

George, you're forgetting something. I'm English. We don't get wound up. We get moderately excited over sport, but politics isn't worth the extra heartbeats.

Wait a minute Andy. I saw your post about how your townies beat ManU - I'd say you were a bit more than "moderately excited".

In fact I think the operative phrase would be "positively ecstatic"!

BTW, how are you doing? Enjoyed the bit about you and your Dad and the condoms. Classic "generation gap". But he "knew" what they were, didn't he? And didn't you say he was a Vet?

Hmmm.....

 

[BrianShaw]

... Ever notice how many retailers put the new cashier on the Express lane?...

Notice that the express lane in the market is generally t one end or the other -- near the door. Thenew cashier often gets the lane near the door, where the cold/hot air blows. Low person on the totem pole gets the worst location.

 

[Bromo33333]

For all you guys who think you want to be clever with the airport authorities, here is an interesting story. Not the US, Singapore, but in line with UN laws:

LINK

Be real careful when flying about what you say. This sounded like something people here were talking about saying or said. It's a different world. Not just the US or UK.

 

[Kevin Roach]

Hey DW

I'll be flying out of Duluth on the 2nd. I'll let you know how it goes. Actually, my wife flies out of there quite often and she never has a problem. Of course she's pretty, I'm not.

 

[big_ben_blue]

When my family moved came to Canada, we naturally brought along as much as possible and luggage real estate was limited. So some of our deemed necessary items went into our carry-on baggage, and that included stuff like kitchen knife sets (y' know, the really large stainless steel ones with life time warranty which cut through everything), metal thermos cans (which looked uncannily like pipe bombs), and so forth. Never had a problem, nothing got looked after; even when suddenly my mothers electric hairbrush went off in one of the bags (making strange humming sounds in the middle of a security check), it didn't bother the security folks at all. My then teenaged sister OTOH wasn't that lucky, she set of the alarms at every metal detector - she was in her tough girl phase and wouldn't go anywhere without her metal plated army boots and camouflage jacket (don't ask:rolleyes: ). But all that was ten years ago, I somehow don't think we would have gotten far in todays climate .