an airport to avoid

[roteague]

Anyway, I fail to understand what the big deal here is. Security checks at the airport are a fact of life - they are not going to go away - not ever!

True, but at what level. Last month, when I was in Australia, I flew from Sydney to Adelaide and Alice Springs to Sydney. Both flights I went through the normal security stations, including having my bags swabbed. But there was no idotic restrictions on carrying water on board the airplane. It wasn't until I was ready to board the flight back to the US, were these restrictions were in place - all passengers were patted down, all hand luggage searched, including turning on all electronics. There comes a point where the security restrictions are beginning to feel like governmental harassment.

 

[gr82bart]

Yes- land of the free - free from the requirement to think.

And also free to be smartasses. In my career managing mostly technical types, I see so many people who are 100% correct (technical and analytical awareness), but are also 100% dead wrong (social and political awareness). See so many jets zoom right over their heads.

Regards, Art.

 

[mark]

Bad Airport DFW. You are in worse shape if you fly American. DOn't fly American into or out of DFW. Just don't. Even a bunch of American employed flight attendants made this comment, as we were changed gates for the fifth time, and everyone on the plane was late for boarding, because there was only one sky train running, one way. Ugh.

Security. I don't see the hassel. I flew into and out of Chicago, and then out of DFW-two of the busiest airports, and had zero problems with anything, except retying my shoes. I broke a shoe lace. I didn't even find it inconvienient. I have had bigger irritations with Canadian Customs agents, than with TSA agents.

 

[Bromo33333]

and home of the paranoid....

As they say - "Just because you are paranoid doesn't mean they're NOT out to get you!"

 

[Roger Hicks]

Dear Art,

Have you considered the possibility that you have simply been lucky? In 54 years' flying (I first flew as a small boy in '52) I have had two really bad 'security' experiences. In neither case was I being rude or a smartass.

In one, maybe 25 years ago, I had long hair and had been to India for a few days, and UK Customs on the way back immediately leapt to the conclusion 'Drugs!!!'. I was strip-searched, the whole bit, and when it became clear they were wasting their time, THEY were the ones who became aggressive and arrogant. I had remained polite and civil until they scowled and said, "You can get dressed now." As soon as I was dressed, I said to the head cretin, "An apology would not come amiss."

In the other, a decade or so ago at LAX. well before September 11th, I could see that if the 'security' guy continued to pull on my coat (resting on a cupboard) without looking at what he was doing, my Leica (resting on top of the coat) might very well fall to the floor and smash, so I shouted 'CAREFUL!' The goon threatened to arrest me for shouting at him... A virtually identical event in India some 10 years before elicited a smile and an apology from the security man.

Often, I have gritted my teeth when dealing with security people. Still more often, any exchange between us has been civil and indeed cordial. If the last has always been your experience, you must surely have been lucky.

Immigration (both UK and US) has been rather more wearing, but even then, my wife and I (a Briton married to an American) have had only a handful of problems, and they have been more or less evenly distributed on either side of the Atlantic (UK and USA).

Cheers,

R.

 

[epatsellis]

Ah, Canadian Customs Agents, fun guys' huh?

This spring I went to Vancouver Island for 2 months, I brought (maybe too much) photo equipment, They couldn't understand why someone who's just a hobbiest has 3 35mm bodies, 20 or so lenses and brings along a strobe pack, 4 heads, and soft boxes. After 2 1/2 hours waiting, being questioned by 3 different customs agents, they decided to let me in.

erie

 

[Bromo33333]

Ah, Canadian Customs Agents, fun guys' huh?

This spring I went to Vancouver Island for 2 months, I brought (maybe too much) photo equipment, They couldn't understand why someone who's just a hobbiest has 3 35mm bodies, 20 or so lenses and brings along a strobe pack, 4 heads, and soft boxes. After 2 1/2 hours waiting, being questioned by 3 different customs agents, they decided to let me in.

erie

I hope you didn't tell them this was your "traveling light" kit, eh?

 

[mark]

More like PIA. I have flown to Vancouver three times and had a hellish experience with Customs each time.

 

[copake_ham]

Ah, Canadian Customs Agents, fun guys' huh?

This spring I went to Vancouver Island for 2 months, I brought (maybe too much) photo equipment, They couldn't understand why someone who's just a hobbiest has 3 35mm bodies, 20 or so lenses and brings along a strobe pack, 4 heads, and soft boxes. After 2 1/2 hours waiting, being questioned by 3 different customs agents, they decided to let me in.

erie

How we go from security on boarding to customs on landing?

The customs agents thought you were bringing in the gear to give or sell to someone in Canada w/o paying GST and duty.

Were you?

 

[naturephoto1]

Ah, Canadian Customs Agents, fun guys' huh?

This spring I went to Vancouver Island for 2 months, I brought (maybe too much) photo equipment, They couldn't understand why someone who's just a hobbiest has 3 35mm bodies, 20 or so lenses and brings along a strobe pack, 4 heads, and soft boxes. After 2 1/2 hours waiting, being questioned by 3 different customs agents, they decided to let me in.

erie

I want to see the backpack that that all fit. We expect to see photos.

Rich

 

[TheFlyingCamera]

And also free to be smartasses. In my career managing mostly technical types, I see so many people who are 100% correct (technical and analytical awareness), but are also 100% dead wrong (social and political awareness). See so many jets zoom right over their heads.

Regards, Art.

Falls under the rubric of free to not think. Just as it takes thought to question arbitrary authority, it takes thought to know when to shut up, or when to be polite. Some techie-types never learned, and some just have socially deficient personalities. God knows, I've worked with enough of them and have enough geek friends to have seen all sides of it.

 

[gr82bart]

Have you considered the possibility that you have simply been lucky?

No. I have had my share of bad (in many cases idiotic) experiences with airlines, security, immigration, lost baggage, etc... I just don't equate my bad experiences with public attempts at political commentary like some do.

Many comments I have read here make me shake my head in disbelief. Really, do we expect these TSA and other personnel to be knowledgeable in all photographic equipment? Seriously, how the hell can a security guy know that my Hasselblad is several thousand dollars. Does he/she even know what a Hasselblad is?

I was on another forum and people were complaining that the security guys were asking them to turn their diving regulators (SCUBA) on and why wasn't it orking, etc.... Calling them stupid and all - interestingly these were techie types again - I see a social behavioural pattern here. Seriously, do we really expect them to know everything about everything? And then to be smartasses with them?

I dunno people.

Regards, Art.

 

[Andy K]

Seriously, how the hell can a security guy know that my Hasselblad is several thousand dollars. Does he/she even know what a Hasselblad is?

Fair point. But regardless, they should treat personal belongings with respect. A uniform does not give them carte blanc to damage equipment or nose through personal files. Neither does a uniform mean the public have to automatically kow-tow to it's occupant.

 

[Roger Hicks]

. Really, do we expect these TSA and other personnel to be knowledgeable in all photographic equipment?

No. But neither of the examples I quoted required any knowledge of photographic equipment, and civility is sadly often lacking. The more power you give to people on minimum wage, and the fewer penalties there are for their incivility, the worse this is going to get. It does not take long for incivility to deteriorate into something worse.

To quote the late Lord Protector of the Commonwealth, 'think it possible that you may be mistaken'.

Cheers,

R.

 

[Bromo33333]

No. But neither of the examples I quoted required any knowledge of photographic equipment, and civility is sadly often lacking. The more power you give to people on minimum wage, and the fewer penalties there are for their incivility, the worse this is going to get. It does not take long for incivility to deteriorate into something worse.

Are you sayihng that these "unwashed masses" need to be "put in their place?" This sure seems elitist to me!

I was paid minimum wage at one point in my life - the work was hard and the pay was low. I was rarely treated with respect, even though I tried very hard to be respectful. If anyone needed to be penalized for incivility it certainly wasn't me or any of my work mates. :rolleyes:

I think this goes both ways - regardless of what someone is paid (I sensed a bit of elitism creeping in) they deserve to be treated with respect. I try to give respect and try to be helpful whever I can regardless if I feel I am being properly respected. You know what, 99% of the time even the gruffest people become at least tolerably friendly.

The lack of civility in our civilization isn't the fault of the TSA, or minimum wage workers. It is us, and our refusing to be civil even though we know better.

Old quote:
"If you want to make the world a better place, take a look in the mirror and make a change"

 

[Roger Hicks]

You know what, 99% of the time even the gruffest people become at least tolerably friendly.

Absolutely. If you note, I was talking about 2 episodes in 54 years' flying: maybe the 1% you were talking about. There was effectively NO redress for dealing with these people.

If I am rude to a publisher, he can cut off part of my livelihood. This has been known to happen. What chance is there of ensuring even a reprimand in either of the cases I quoted? Rather less than 1%, I suspect.

When ANYONE is put in a position of power, they should live in at least slight fear that they can be called to account for abuses of that power.

If this is elitism, I cheerfully confess to it.

Cheers,

R.

 

[TheFlyingCamera]

The more power you give to people on minimum wage, and the fewer penalties there are for their incivility, the worse this is going to get. It does not take long for incivility to deteriorate into something worse.

Perhaps better said, give someone with little qualification to do anything else lots of power and little consequences for its abuse and you will see lots of abuse. Some of the people working at the TSA in inspections will develop an inflated sense of their power and importance, in reaction to what they perceive as the privilege of the folks they screen, and so take it out maliciously on the passengers because they can. It's why policemen should be among the last people to actually have firearms, not the first.

 

[Bromo33333]

Absolutely. If you note, I was talking about 2 episodes in 54 years' flying: maybe the 1% you were talking about. There was effectively NO redress for dealing with these people.

If I am rude to a publisher, he can cut off part of my livelihood. This has been known to happen. What chance is there of ensuring even a reprimand in either of the cases I quoted? Rather less than 1%, I suspect.

When ANYONE is put in a position of power, they should live in at least slight fear that they can be called to account for abuses of that power.

If this is elitism, I cheerfully confess to it.

Cheers,

R.

Very good point - accountability and responsibility are two values that are important when someone is given some power. But also people can be so selfish and rude (the ones the TSA can process) it would be very easy to get officious and nasty, and it is amazing to me that more don't.

It certainly isn't elitism on reflection, but the way you stated it previously was obviously mis-read by me.

 

[Bromo33333]

[...] Some of the people working at the TSA in inspections will develop an inflated sense of their power and importance, in reaction to what they perceive as the privilege of the folks they screen, [...]

Actually 90% of the people they screen are just fine, it is the 10% that are difficult and rude that tend to set those off. My minimum wage job was in a gocery store/ hypermarket in a rather expensive part of town - and 90% of the folks were great, but 10% had a self importance and a rudeness that it took a real act of will to remain polite and professional.

 

[Roger Hicks]

Very good point - accountability and responsibility are two values that are important when someone is given some power. But also people can be so selfish and rude (the ones the TSA can process) it would be very easy to get officious and nasty, and it is amazing to me that more don't.

I wouldn't argue with that either...

Cheers,

R.

 

[TheFlyingCamera]

Actually 90% of the people they screen are just fine, it is the 10% that are difficult and rude that tend to set those off. My minimum wage job was in a gocery store/ hypermarket in a rather expensive part of town - and 90% of the folks were great, but 10% had a self importance and a rudeness that it took a real act of will to remain polite and professional.

That's why I said "some", not many, or all. There is a difference however, between a TSA wage-slave and a retail clerk; the TSA wage-slave has some legal authority to act out. I always do my very best to be cheerful and helpful when they ask me for something, to defuse any carry-over hostility they may have had from dealing with someone else in front of me.

I had a similar experience to yours, working in a camera store which had a very high-end demographic for its neighborhood. 95% of our customers were fine, but we had a few rampaging idiots who could try the patience of a panoply of saints. We had a few celebrities for customers, and most were fabulous- I once sold Cal Ripken Jr. a half-dozen cameras to give as christmas gifts. Fantastic customer, extremely humble, low-key, easy to help. Then we had Stephen L. Miles (TV attorney in Baltimore) who was a rampaging jackass. Pam Shriver (the tennis player) was another nice one to work with.

Then there were the anonymous but rich eccentrics. To borrow a quote from Lurch, the butler, "ugggggggh". I managed to cope with most of them because I was well-trained in customer service; some of the younger counter-staff couldn't cut it with them. One time we had a lady come in who must have already been having a horrible day, because she took it out on one of the women I worked with; nothing she could do to help this lady was right. The lady's problem was she couldn't actually articulate what her problem/issue was, and as she frothed into a rage, the more angry she became, the more inarticulate she became, so it made it harder to help her. Finally, she reduced my co-worker to tears and we had to get the manager to come out and calm her down. Intervention would have happened sooner, but for the fact we were all busy and nobody saw the interaction until it was well underway.

 

[MattKing]

How we go from security on boarding to customs on landing?

The customs agents thought you were bringing in the gear to give or sell to someone in Canada w/o paying GST and duty.

Were you?

More likely, the customs and immigration officers thought you were bringing in the gear to work, without first making the appropriate arrangements.

The rules have changed since I was a student customs and immigration officer, but not entirely.

Matt

 

[epatsellis]

How we go from security on boarding to customs on landing?

The customs agents thought you were bringing in the gear to give or sell to someone in Canada w/o paying GST and duty.

Were you?

no, in fact, I left with more than I came with.....

More likely, the customs and immigration officers thought you were bringing in the gear to work, without first making the appropriate arrangements.

The rules have changed since I was a student customs and immigration officer, but not entirely.

Matt

Makes sense, I had business cards for my signshop with me, they did ask me what I did for a living and asked if I had any business cards. Good thing I had some with me.


erie

 

[epatsellis]

I hope you didn't tell them this was your "traveling light" kit, eh?

Surprisingly, the customs guys were pretty good, one of them asked me what else I shoot, and then asked why I didn't bring the MF or 8x10 with me.

"I want to see the backpack that that all fit. We expect to see photos.

Rich"

Cameras & lenses were split among a roller carryon case, (bodies, about 10 or 11 lenses and film) and a military style Hardigg travel case (about 2'x2'x4-1/2') 1/3 of that has 3 layers of trays with padded dividers for the glass, lightmeters, odds and ends that isn't on the carryon, the rest for the strobe heads and pack. At least I had 100 rolls of film with me, made it obvious I wasnt' there to just sell equipment.

I don't blame them, but they have to follow procedures, etc. The funniest thing was when one of the 3 or 4 guys I talked to asked why I had one only a duffel bag for my clothes and so much for camera equipment. I joked that I was pretty sure they had laundromats, or worse case, Salvation Army stores...

erie

 

[Bromo33333]

Surprisingly, the customs guys were pretty good, one of them asked me what else I shoot, and then asked why I didn't bring the MF or 8x10 with me.

"I want to see the backpack that that all fit. We expect to see photos.

Rich"

Cameras & lenses were split among a roller carryon case, (bodies, about 10 or 11 lenses and film) and a military style Hardigg travel case (about 2'x2'x4-1/2') 1/3 of that has 3 layers of trays with padded dividers for the glass, lightmeters, odds and ends that isn't on the carryon, the rest for the strobe heads and pack. At least I had 100 rolls of film with me, made it obvious I wasnt' there to just sell equipment.

I don't blame them, but they have to follow procedures, etc. The funniest thing was when one of the 3 or 4 guys I talked to asked why I had one only a duffel bag for my clothes and so much for camera equipment. I joked that I was pretty sure they had laundromats, or worse case, Salvation Army stores...

erie

That's cool - sounds like overall it was pretty pleasant and light hearted. Most of my experience (80%+) has been that way.