An absolute beginner's question on ancient 9x12 film holders

Captain Mainwaring

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It is with some trepidation that I address the most esteemed and venerable sorcerers of the large format as gathered here. I have come by a rather old German 9x12 camera and was planning to use it as my starting point in large format photography. However, I am perplexed by the set of holders it came with, and I cannot avoid the nagging suspicion those are meant to be used for glass, rather than film. I do have dreams of trying the wet plate technique someday, but I'd really prefer to start with what I have at hand. The holders look like this from the inside; is there, perhaps, some missing part that would make them suitable for film? An extra plate?
 

Don_ih

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What's missing is a film sheath. It's a little metal holder that, with film in it, clips in where the glass plate would. I have made them before using thin aluminum that I then sprayed black. A Kodak 4x5 one look like this:



That one is for sale on eBay (according to Google). Not sure how easy it will be to get 9x12 ones - although easier in Europe than in North America.
 
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Captain Mainwaring

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Thanks! I suspected something of the sort. I wonder whether they're thick enough for a 3D printer to print them.
 

Don_ih

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Captain Mainwaring said:
Thanks! I suspected something of the sort. I wonder whether they're thick enough for a 3D printer to print them.
Click to expand...

My bet is they can't be printed with a 3d printer. The metal folds over to retain the film at the film plane - there's no room for anything thicker than pop-can aluminum.
 
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Captain Mainwaring

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Don Heisz said:
My bet is they can't be printed with a 3d printer. The metal folds over to retain the film at the film plane - there's no room for anything thicker than pop-can aluminum.
Click to expand...

Yeah, looks that way. At any rate, a friend has suggested black cardboard, and I might do just that. Also, there’s a design for a 3D-printable back that takes 4x5 inch holders. The camera looks a lot like Voigtländer Avus. The brand is Rhaco, and the lens is a Schneider-Kreuznach Xenar. The camera is in a good enough condition, and I got it for around 50 USD in local currency.
 

removed account4

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Black cardboard might work .. I've never seen or used those film/plate holders before. but I regularly put black cardboard in the septi for the falling plate cameras I use. I use SinglePly mat board, but to be honest I don't shoot film in those cameras I only shoot paper negatives I'm not sure how well it will work with film.

Good luck with your adventure, Captain!
John
 

grat

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Don Heisz said:
My bet is they can't be printed with a 3d printer. The metal folds over to retain the film at the film plane - there's no room for anything thicker than pop-can aluminum.
Click to expand...

With 3D printers getting down to 0.15mm layer height, that's a questionable wager-- but such a layer height would be a bit delicate. Two of those layers at 0.3mm might be OK. Alternatively, two frames that can slot into each other and hold the film stable could be designed.

What would be easier would be a frame that fits in the 9x12 holder, and allows you to inset a 4x5 septum into, something along this line:

https://www.camleyphotographic.com/shop/4x5-film-insert-for-half-plate-holder-condition-4e-7884/
 

Don_ih

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It takes 5 minutes and a pair of scissors to make one out of aluminum.
 

Donald Qualls

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I have a set of film sheaths for my Ideal plate camera, and an Ender 3 -- I'm pretty sure the sheaths are too thin to 3D print. Even two or three layers with thin enough layer height (can go as small as 0.1 mm with most FDM printers) wouldn't be rigid enough to latch into the plate holder (at least in my Ideal, the springs in the plate holder are quite stiff, compressing the sheath lengthwise). They should be easy enough for someone with a bending brake to make, however, starting with galvanized, aluminum, or brass sheet stock (paint before bending, I think). You'd need an existing one to ensure you get the dimensions right.

Another option that didn't exist just a few years ago (for a while) is actual glass plates. User @Nodda Duma makes the J.Lane glass plates, and 9x12 is one of his standard sizes. His Speed Plates are ISO 25 orthochromatic, which will pretty closely match what a plate camera from the 1920s was designed to use.
 

Donald Qualls

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Nice! Even better, all 9x12 sheaths should be the same dimensions, so once you have the jig built to cut and bend the sheet, you can make as many as you like (I wonder if you could make them efficiently enough to sell on eBay or Etsy?).
 

bernard_L

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I have used my grandfather's 9x12 camera by inserting together in the holder (a) bottom: a disposable glass plate, e.g. a clearly missed photo; (b) on top: the film. The springs inside the holder accommodate the extra thickness of the film.
 

Don_ih

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Donald Qualls said:
Nice! Even better, all 9x12 sheaths should be the same dimensions, so once you have the jig built to cut and bend the sheet, you can make as many as you like (I wonder if you could make them efficiently enough to sell on eBay or Etsy?).
Click to expand...

I could easily set up to make them, but I don't think I will. While I like making individual things, I don't like doing it factory-style (I've done a few things that way that I've sold). If I were going to do it, I'd make a press to do all the folds at once and crimp ribs in the sheath (similar to what you see in the Kodak ones) to make it just a bit straighter. The type of holder that is shown up above looks like it could, with those four springs, make a non-strengthened sheath bulge in the middle - just about the last thing you want.
 

Donald Qualls

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Every sheath I've seen (commercially made parts, probably from the 1950s at the latest and potentially as old as the 1920s-1930s cameras I've owned) had stiffening ribs. I wouldn't even think about putting a sheath without them into an original type plate holder; not only the springs from behind (which hold the plate or sheath against the plate holder's edge frame, to set correct flange to film distance) but also the latch that holds the sheath in place when the dark slide is out would tend to bulge the sheath. The ones for my Ideal(s) have quite a stiff spring on that latch.
 

Don_ih

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The ones in my picture don't bulge. There are no springs under them. If there had been, I would've creased ribs into them. As it is, they fit snug under the retainer.
 

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hi again
another thing you might do is just put glass ( or lighter plexiglass ) in there and put your paper or film on top of the glass. a couple of squares of double sticky tape, or glue stick can keep the paper or film in place. as mentioned before I usually just use mattboard. I can't tell from your photograph of the plate holder if there is an edge on the sides
I see the springs and the bottom edge. I'd just be worried that whatever you put in it might spring off inside the camera if there wasn't an edge.
 

Donald Qualls

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jnantz said:
I can't tell from your photograph of the plate holder if there is an edge on the sides
Click to expand...

Looks to me like the plate would be retained at the ends, not on the long sides.
 
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Captain Mainwaring

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Hi,

No, no edge at the sides on these. I have a few more that do have an edge at the sides—those came with the camera itself and are obscenely rusty. I'm keeping them for later, since bringing them into functional condition will be no mean feat; in the meantime, I picked up a batch of rust-free ones that I intend to use. There's also a design for a 3D-printed back for Avus-like cameras that takes standard 4x5 holders, so I was thinking 9x12 cm with these, and 4x5 with the 3D-printed back when I get the other kind of holders. We'll see. Thanks to everyone for piping in.
 

Donald Qualls

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One thing to remember with those 4x5 adapters: they'll set the plane of focus back, so you'll need to come up with a way to set the front standard back the same amount when you open the camera.
 

grat

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*looks around furtively*

... Psst. hey. Buddy. Look up "evaporust". Might be the solution to your precipitate.
 
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