Ammonia spell, where from?

Mustang

A
Mustang

  • 0
  • 0
  • 67
32nd Avenue

A
32nd Avenue

  • 0
  • 0
  • 69
Saab

A
Saab

  • 0
  • 0
  • 74
Chevy Van

A
Chevy Van

  • 1
  • 0
  • 72

Recent Classifieds

Forum statistics

Threads
182,067
Messages
2,519,708
Members
95,488
Latest member
Crit-ter85
Recent bookmarks
0

Loose Gravel

Member
Joined
Feb 28, 2003
Messages
929
Location
Santa Barbar
It seems that at the end of a session of printing or film developing, as I am pouring and rinsing and cleaning up, I often get a whiff of ammonia. What is getting mixed with what to give me this odor?
 

Canuck

Member
Joined
Mar 3, 2004
Messages
292
Location
Great White
Shooter
Multi Format
Wonder if it could be the fix as a lot of rapid fixers use ammonium thiosulphate.
 

Canuck

Member
Joined
Mar 3, 2004
Messages
292
Location
Great White
Shooter
Multi Format
What I discovered was that the mixing of the developer and fixer gives this nice pungent aroma. Just tried it to confirm it :smile:
 

Ole

Moderator
Moderator
Joined
Sep 9, 2002
Messages
9,250
Location
Bergen, Norway
Shooter
Large Format
Mixing ammonium thiosulfate (rapid fix) with a strong alkali (developer) releases ammonia. Basic chemistry! :tongue:
 

Claire Senft

Member
Joined
Dec 7, 2004
Messages
3,239
Location
Milwaukee, W
Shooter
35mm
Very enlightening

That was a wonderful explanation. Now please tell me how simply imbibing tap water puts the ammonia smell into my Depends.
 

removed account4

Subscriber
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Messages
29,850
Shooter
Hybrid
i mixed formulary tf-4 with tap water instead of distilled water and got outgassing of ammonia. it is the only chemistry i have had this happen with, and was told that it was the chlorine & other additives in the tapwater.

maybe you are having the same problem claire :smile:
 
Last edited by a moderator:

eumenius

Member
Joined
Jan 6, 2005
Messages
768
Location
Moscow, Russ
Shooter
Medium Format
Hey, the higher is the dilution, the further goes the hydrolysis - both acid and base in ammonium thiosulfate are weak, so no wonder it hydrolyzes so readily, giving you a full aroma :smile:))

Zhenya
 

Ole

Moderator
Moderator
Joined
Sep 9, 2002
Messages
9,250
Location
Bergen, Norway
Shooter
Large Format
jnanian said:
i mixed formulary tf-4 with tap water instead of distilled water and got outgassing of ammonia. it is the only chemistry i have had this happen with, and was told that it was the chlorine & other additives in the tapwater. maybe you are having the same problem claire :smile:

[Blatant plug]
That's why I made my OF-1 fixer buffered. Well - one of the reasons, but in my eyes (and nose) an important one. Find it in the Chemistry Recipes section.
[/Blatant Plug]
 

Flotsam

Member
Joined
Sep 30, 2002
Messages
3,221
Location
S.E. New Yor
Lately I've been processing some Efke KB100 and when I open the tank after dumping the fixer...P.U.! It's not Amonia or Acid or Sulpher. It smells like that Moo Shu Pork that you shoved to the back of your refrigerator a few months ago and forgot about. It goes away quickly with washing but really knocks you over when you first open the tank. Never experienced it with any other film.
 

Maine-iac

Member
Joined
Oct 12, 2004
Messages
462
Location
Island Heigh
Shooter
Med. Format RF
Loose Gravel said:
It seems that at the end of a session of printing or film developing, as I am pouring and rinsing and cleaning up, I often get a whiff of ammonia. What is getting mixed with what to give me this odor?

I get this too when I'm mixing Perma-Wash with Selenium Toner. I don't know which chemicals are reacting with which, but it's something in that combination of washing aid with selenium toner.

Larry
 

Ole

Moderator
Moderator
Joined
Sep 9, 2002
Messages
9,250
Location
Bergen, Norway
Shooter
Large Format
Maine-iac said:
I get this too when I'm mixing Perma-Wash with Selenium Toner. I don't know which chemicals are reacting with which, but it's something in that combination of washing aid with selenium toner.

Why on earth do you do that???? Mix your selenium toner with water; your Perma-Wash with water, and keep the two separate!

KRST contains ammonium thiosulfate, BTW...
 

lee

Member
Joined
Nov 23, 2002
Messages
2,912
Location
Fort Worth T
Shooter
8x10 Format
I too believe the smell is from the ammonium thiosulfate in the KRST


lee\c
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Maine-iac

Member
Joined
Oct 12, 2004
Messages
462
Location
Island Heigh
Shooter
Med. Format RF
Ole said:
Why on earth do you do that???? Mix your selenium toner with water; your Perma-Wash with water, and keep the two separate!

KRST contains ammonium thiosulfate, BTW...


I wasn't clear enough. I don't mix the PermaWash and Selenium together directly, but add both of them to water to make my washing aid. I'm not adding enough selenium to act as a toner and change the print tone, but only enough to coat the silver particles and add permanence. When I want to actually tone prints, then, of course I keep them separate.

Larry
 

Ole

Moderator
Moderator
Joined
Sep 9, 2002
Messages
9,250
Location
Bergen, Norway
Shooter
Large Format
Maine-iac said:
... I'm not adding enough selenium to act as a toner and change the print tone, but only enough to coat the silver particles and add permanence. ...

The value of this is questionable, from what I've heard. I think the main effect is to release selenium into the environment, without beneficial effects to the prints.
 

Maine-iac

Member
Joined
Oct 12, 2004
Messages
462
Location
Island Heigh
Shooter
Med. Format RF
Ole said:
The value of this is questionable, from what I've heard. I think the main effect is to release selenium into the environment, without beneficial effects to the prints.


Any source for this? I'd like to check it out, because I agree that if it's not helping my prints, then there's good reason not to do it. I haven't heard the efficacy of this questioned before. I use about 30 ml of selenium per liter of washing aid.
 

kwmullet

Member
Joined
Jan 3, 2004
Messages
890
Location
Albuquerque, NM
Shooter
Multi Format
am I reading this wrong, or is the archival value of KRST seriously questionable?

Should we start a new thread for this?
All other things being equal, does treatment of negs and prints with KRST increase, have no effect on, or decrease archival permanence?

-KwM-
 

ann

Subscriber
Joined
Sep 10, 2002
Messages
3,334
Shooter
35mm
i thought i posted this the other day, but
ole, many years ago it was common to mix sel. with HCA. old school thinking.

THe last time i looked the directions on the KST label still list that as an option.

Maine-iac

it would b e helpful for you to review the data from the IPI regarding the archival properties of selenium. Based on their recommendations, what you are doing is not adding any permance protection. It is neither cost effective or environmental sound.

Am sorry i don't have the orginal paper source, but check out Tim Rudmans' comments in his book on Toning under the chapter on Archival permanence.
 

Maine-iac

Member
Joined
Oct 12, 2004
Messages
462
Location
Island Heigh
Shooter
Med. Format RF
ann said:
i thought i posted this the other day, but

Maine-iac

it would b e helpful for you to review the data from the IPI regarding the archival properties of selenium. Based on their recommendations, what you are doing is not adding any permance protection. It is neither cost effective or environmental sound.

Am sorry i don't have the orginal paper source, but check out Tim Rudmans' comments in his book on Toning under the chapter on Archival permanence.


Thanks, Ann, I will check it out. I don't like Selenium any better than the next guy. Maybe you can teach old dogs new tricks.

Larry
 

Ole

Moderator
Moderator
Joined
Sep 9, 2002
Messages
9,250
Location
Bergen, Norway
Shooter
Large Format
The value of KRST is not in question, but the value of a light toning without tonal change is.

I think it was dicussed in some depth on the pure-silver mailing list a while back, but I'm going to have to hope for some help here. Ryuji?
 

lee

Member
Joined
Nov 23, 2002
Messages
2,912
Location
Fort Worth T
Shooter
8x10 Format
Ole,
Richard Knoppow is the expert on this. I believe he a paper on it somewhere in his files. But regardless, he is the one to contact. From what I remember, you have the facts right.

lee\c
 

ann

Subscriber
Joined
Sep 10, 2002
Messages
3,334
Shooter
35mm
am sure Ryuji can provide the specific date of the papers, as this was discussed in depth a month or so ago on pure-silver.

as i remember he provided a lot of data. i thought i saved that particular thread but will have to go search around in other files.

And as always Ole is correct.
 

Maine-iac

Member
Joined
Oct 12, 2004
Messages
462
Location
Island Heigh
Shooter
Med. Format RF
A quick Google search turned up the following info. I'll follow up on the suggested pure-silver articles to see if the thinking has changed.

From Lloyd Erlick’s website (1998 article)
Selenium itself is not particularly toxic. . .The problem with selenium is that it reacts with other substances to form soluble reaction products which are toxic. When it reacts to form insoluble reaction products, they tend to be less toxic. A good example is silver selenide, which is formed on a photographic print as it is being toned. The color we see in a selenium toned print is the color of silver-selenide coating the microscopic particles of silver metal we have in our print. It's very fortunate that humans find this color agreeable, because this selenide coating (or plating) on the silver particles also protects the silver from many substances that would react with it and degrade the image. Sulfur dioxide, a common air pollutant, is a good example.

From handcolor.com
What toners do is convert metallic silver to a silver sulfide or to a silver selenide creating an inert compound that significantly reduces the effect of oxidizing agents that may reduce the life of a black and white print. Selenium toner converts metallic silver to a silver selenide for greater image stability. . .Selenium toner when used for archival permanence ( 1 part Kodak Rapid Selenium Toner + 39 parts water and left in solution for 10 minutes ) will halt the ravage of time with no appreciable shift in color.
 

dancqu

Member
Joined
Sep 7, 2002
Messages
3,654
Location
Willamette V
Shooter
Medium Format
Maine-iac said:
Maybe you can teach old dogs new tricks.

I've studied that IPI paper. It should be made clear that their
concern is with microfilm.

Here is your new trick for today. For complete protection
prepare a .01% solution of Na2S, sodium sulfide, then soak
the print in that solution. The IPI paper did not suggest
any times. I'd think 3 or 4 minutes would do.

If paper and microfilm silver are similar than the 1:9,999
solution will give very good archival protection.

IIRC, the matter of selenium's value as an archival treatment
is wholely concerned with microfilm. There may be no studies
of it's worth where papers are the subject. Dan
 

Ole

Moderator
Moderator
Joined
Sep 9, 2002
Messages
9,250
Location
Bergen, Norway
Shooter
Large Format
Sorry, just can't take it anymore....

Returning to the original question, we have now explored the possible sources for ammonia smell. For what was really asked about (see title of thread), I have no answer. And unfortunately Hogwart's isn't on email, so it's difficult to get in touch with them.
 
Photrio.com contains affiliate links to products. We may receive a commission for purchases made through these links.
To read our full affiliate disclosure statement please click Here.

PHOTRIO PARTNERS EQUALLY FUNDING OUR COMMUNITY:



Ilford ADOX Freestyle Photographic Stearman Press Weldon Color Lab Blue Moon Camera & Machine
Top Bottom