Amber Glass Bottles

hrst · Mar 22, 2010

Sparky said:
I wouldn't expect Butane to work. It's not inert.

It's sold as inert gas for preserving photographic solutions by Tetenal and others with their own brand names. This is first time I hear it not being inert with photographic developers. Possible, though.

Photo Engineer · Mar 22, 2010

Well, Butane is a pretty inert organic gas in the absence of Oxygen or electric spark.

The best clear thick plastic bottles are made by Jobo IMHO. I have been able to store developer for up to nearly a year now in them.

PE

sepiareverb · Mar 22, 2010

I have both clear and brown bottles, including several quart Boston Rounds that I purchased liquid Microdol-X in years ago.

fotch · Mar 22, 2010

Photo Engineer said:
................We used clear glass and thick plastic bottes with corks or screw caps to store our developers. Our lab storage areas were brightly lit with fluorescent lights for 8 hours / day. There was NO PROBLEM.

PE

I have no disagreement with your statement, just two questions and a thought.

Many amateurs don't use chemistry up as fast as a commercial lab. How long was the typical bottle of developer sitting around in the daylight environment? Also, in the lab, did you (or they) use a inert gas in the bottle each time it was opened then closed?

One small but important advantage to "Amber" is it alerts a person that it not drinkable. Of course, using amber beer bottles or clear soda bottles, this is a real and present danger that is easily avoided.

Labels can fall off or be smudged and not readable so may not be reliable.

One last thought, although not a easy to see as if clear, but holding a amber glass bottle in front of a light bulb, I can see if anything is floating, as least I think I can.

fotch · Mar 22, 2010

sepiareverb said:
I have both clear and brown bottles, including several quart Boston Rounds that I purchased liquid Microdol-X in years ago.

I wonder why Kodak used brown bottles if it was not needed? Would then not of saved a few pennies multiplied by tens of thousands bottles?

Anon Ymous · Mar 22, 2010

fotch said:
I wonder why Kodak used brown bottles if it was not needed? Would then not of saved a few pennies multiplied by tens of thousands bottles?

Maybe because the retailers wouldn't necessarily store their merchandise in ideal conditions, as opposed to the user, who can at least resort to cardboards?

Photo Engineer · Mar 22, 2010

Hey, I never said brown bottles were not needed. I have said that YOU don't need them in your darkroom due to the low light level and the lack of UV. Kodak and others needed brown bottles to insure safe keeping during shipment and storage in showcases at photo stores.

These are two different situations. However, please note that most all color kits from EK are not in brown bottles, but rather thick plastic, and that liquid developer concentrates such as HC110 are also in clear heavy plastic.

PE

sepiareverb · Mar 22, 2010

I store my HC-110 in syrup form in the little plastic bottles. I found one, partially used but sealed, which had fallen off a shelf in the darkroom and had to have been there for three years minimum. It was a little darker than the new, but tested fine. I used it up and haven't worried about HC-110 keeping any more!

Kirk Keyes · Mar 22, 2010

Swing by your local chemistry lab and ask they if they have any old acid bottles - sulfuric, nitric, hydrochloric, it doesn't matter which, and see if they will give you some. They are clear, heavy glass with a chemical resistant cap and they typically have a clear plastic coating on them so that if they get dropped, they will not loose all the liquid in them. (That is, as long as they don't get the neck broken on them...)

They are usually in the 4 Liter size.

dancqu · Mar 22, 2010

Consider the Caps --- Liters not Quarts

Stephanie Brim said:
I'm going to place a large order at the end of this week ...

Likely you should have the Polycone or Polyseal caps.
They screw on and as the cap is applied the included
'cork' is forced into the mouth of the bottle. I can't
imagine a more secure seal. Stay away from
metal caps as they may corrode.

Also the bottles are some fraction of a liter save for
the 1 ounce which is over sized. A 2 ounce is 62.5 ml,
a 4 ounce is 125 ml and on up. Boston Rounds are much
in use. The exact hue of the ambers may vary slightly
from one batch to another and from one or another
manufacturer. Dan

Photo Engineer · Mar 22, 2010

If you are going to have gallon and 4L or 5L glass containers with processing solutions in them, I suggest that you get a chemical carryall. It is a foam plastic container made in several sizes and shapes to fit different glass containers. They have two convenient strap handles for carrying.

If you drop one, the bottle will either not break due to the cushion of the foam plastic, or if it does, the plastic usually contains the liquid completely or partially thus minimizing the mess if you do have an accident. These carryall containers were required for moving individual glass bottles at EK.

PE

dynachrome · Mar 22, 2010

I have a number of Grolsch bottles which I use for storing chemicals. Most of these are green but a dark beer was sold in amber bottles. The problem now with Grolsch bottles is that they have been restyled and now hold slightly less than they used to. Luckily I have enough older ones. The stoppers used to be ceramic and were changed to plastic years ago. When some of the rubber washers started to crack I ordered a bag of them from a brewing supply company.

SchwinnParamount · Mar 22, 2010

Photo Engineer said:
Ok people, ante up. Show me a photo textbook that illustrates a photolytic reaction with a developer that does not take blasting with UV or sunlight!

We used clear glass and thick plastic bottes with corks or screw caps to store our developers. Our lab storage areas were brightly lit with fluorescent lights for 8 hours / day. There was NO PROBLEM.

PE

Ron,

I hear what you're saying. It's just that my amber bottles are essentially free as I enjoy the benefits of the flax oil they originally contained. Rather than tossing the glass bottle out to be recycled at a certain energy cost, I reuse the bottles in my darkroom.

And now the truth... I just think amber bottles look cool. All of my non-photographer friends are REALLY IMPRESSED by amber and not so excited about clear bottles.

cmacd123 · Mar 22, 2010

I use the amber because a long time ago I read somewhere that not all the clear glass battles were chemically neutral. Quite possibly bull, but why take the chance.

One thing that is a TERRIBLE practice is to use any sort of food or Beverage container for anything that is not a food or beverage. Kids wander into places unexpectedly and you can't watch them. even worse adults are also possibly around. Using a chemical bottle makes it quite clear that the contents are not food.

Photo Engineer · Mar 22, 2010

Leaded glass is one of the only instances of non-neutral glass that I know of offhand.

Don't use it. OTOH, leaded glass is quite expensive and also can be poisonous if used for storage of acidic foods and drinks.

PE

Athiril · Mar 22, 2010

You can get glass amber reagent bottles with screw top caps (you can get glass stoppered bottles, but screw tops are more reliable, i have found some glass stopper bottles from the same place will not form an airtight enough seal to prevent early oxidation, while some will, luck of the draw) from ebay sellers and online shops that deal in lab glassware.

I usually get my stuff from wiltronics on ebay or wiltronics.com.au or use their magazine catalogue.

Wade D · Mar 22, 2010

The only reason I use 1 gal. brown glass bottles is that I worked at a pharmacy in the early 70's. They were not allowed to re-use them so just tossed them out...until I started working there. I carefully washed and de-labeled them and sold them to my photo enthusiast friends for a buck apiece. Still have and use 10 or so.
Now they use brown plastic bottles and still toss them. Ask your local pharmacy if they have any.
I agree that clear glass or plastic works just as well as the brown ones. I just happened to work at the right place at the right time.

SchwinnParamount · Mar 23, 2010

cmacd123 said:
I use the amber because a long time ago I read somewhere that not all the clear glass battles were chemically neutral. Quite possibly bull, but why take the chance.

One thing that is a TERRIBLE practice is to use any sort of food or Beverage container for anything that is not a food or beverage. Kids wander into places unexpectedly and you can't watch them. even worse adults are also possibly around. Using a chemical bottle makes it quite clear that the contents are not food.

I think I raised my kids to be fairly intelligent people. They know not to wander into my darkroom... a place that they know full well is of foul poisons ... , open random glass bottles and drink the contents. If they are thirsty then they go to the logical place for a drink... the kitchen.

Besides, the food labels have been removed from the bottles and replaced with labels indicating the nature of the current contents.

CBG · Mar 23, 2010

I use heavy white duct tape and sharpie markers so my label doesn't come off and my markings stay put. On the few recycled soda or food containers that I use, all original labelings are removed. No way they look like anonymous potable liquids. AND I am the only one in the darkroom. No kids.

jgjbowen · Mar 23, 2010

I didn't read the whole thread, but you can usually get brown glass bottles in various sizes from Photographer's Formulary

Ray Rogers · Mar 23, 2010

Photo Engineer said:
...please note that most all color kits from EK are not in brown bottles, but rather thick plastic, and that liquid developer concentrates such as HC110 are also in clear heavy plastic.
PE

Perhaps. but some color chems did come in brown glass bottles... eg. the E6 Hobby-Pac Color Developer part 2A was in a brown glass bottle. It contained ca. 100 ml. and (including cap) weighed (empty) about 94.14 g.

Other chems were found in strong, opaque(?) silver bags...

But at any rate, these color kits were all enclosed in boxes up until the time they to be mixed, so....

The last T-Max developer I bought came in a tough light reducing grey bottle.
The last Rodinal I got came in a white plastic bottle.
All of these did reduce light intensity somewhat more than plain clear bottles...

Not that this is to take away from the point which you make very well.

It is my understanding that the choice of color for bottling beverages was not primarially one of aesthetic; In a well designed product, the glass color was actually functional... of course for some it might very well be all aesthetics.

Photo Engineer · Mar 23, 2010

Beer, in clear bottles, forms an unpalatable byproduct with keeping due to photolytic reactions. It is offset by mild acid. This is why Corona beer is recommended to be drunk with a wedge of lime to "flavor" it. What it does is remove the bad taste and add a limey taste over it.

This type of photolytic reaction is very rare, and almost unheard of with most photoproducts, but for long storage, Kodak took the safest way and tried to prevent any chance of bright light interaction. Versatol, one of Kodak's first liquid concentrates, came in brown bottles as well.

Sometimes you go that way because someone cuts you a deal on huge quantities of brown bottles.

PE

Photo Engineer · Mar 23, 2010

raizans said:
how important is it to displace air from the bottle? how fast will chemicals go bad?

when people say they keep the bottles topped off, i always wonder how they do it. where is this extra chemistry coming from? if it's fixer, i can understand that, but what about developer?

is there a cheaper alternative to the argon gas can linked to earlier?

The difference is months vs weeks when air is replaced by Nitrogen or other inert gas.

I use Nitrogen. A tank lasts me several years and costs under $30 at the local welding supply. Of course, I own my own tank. If you do not, then you must pay rent on the tank. And, I own my own valve. Generally these run about $100 and $120 up front as initial costs.

PE

hrst · Mar 23, 2010

raizans said:
how important is it to displace air from the bottle?

It's the most important thing.

when people say they keep the bottles topped off, i always wonder how they do it.

Use plastic soda bottles. You can squeeze them. It's easiest.

With glass bottles, you have to use marbles or protective gas.

Ray Rogers · Mar 24, 2010

Well, you could always siphon...

but then again, unless you are doing high volumes, I doubt it is really worth the expense or the trouble.
That is to say, there are other means. Nitrogen etc. is convenient for some (especially if they use it for agitation as well...) but one can also simply fill their glass container to the top to expell the air before sealing... any leftover could be stored in a smaller bottle... also filled to the top.
That works pretty well I think.

Floating covers are used by some; It would seem possible someone could devise a bottle with a floating lid (dropped or built) inside, that still allows you to pour out the solution smoothly.

But all of this is for people whose rate of film use is so low that their solutions go bad from storage rather than use. For those people, in the absence of an indicator or practical test, oneshot use, or even better, freshly mixed chemistry would seem to me to be the best bet.

Amber Glass Bottles

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