Alternatives to tray processing for 8x10

[DrPablo]

I keep scratching and destroying my precious 8x10 negatives when developing them in trays. What alternatives are there that will make this less of an issue, especially for developing multiple negatives?

 

[chrisofwlp]

Tray processing with 8x10 takes some practice, but after you get it down you wont scratch film ever again. Make sure you pull the film straight out, so that all comparable edges are parallel. Its the corners of the film that scratch your emulsion. I usually use the edge of the tray closest to me to keep my film square as I shuffle, and then turn the stack around after i have shuffled each sheet twice, in order to avoid gross over development on the try edge of my film. I think trays are the way to go, if you can keep fro scratching your film. Plus you can develop by inspection with trays.

You can use a rotary processor in lieu of trays, but I'm pretty sure you can only process one sheet at a time.

 

[Peter Spangenberg]

Personally, I try to keep it to six 8x10 sheets at the most. Also, I know it's a matter of preference, but I have found that emulsion down reduces the chance of scratches as an errant corner will be touching the bottom sheet's back (not the emulsion) as you are sliding it out to place it on top. Make sure your tray has no rough spots. Also, as the prior response said, when developing by inspection, you look at the back of the film. Another helpful hint that I've found useful-I keep a container of ice water handy to dip my fingers in to keep the warmth of my fingers from causing the edges of the film to develop unevenly.

 

[Scott Peters]

Emulsion side up and I never worry about finger temp and have very even development. pull from the bottom and just lay the neg on the surface of the water and then slowly push/imerse into the developer...I look at both the non-emulsion side to see highlights coming in, but also look through the neg from the emulsion side to see how the image is developing also.

 

[Jim Fitzgerald]

I have no problem either developing in trays. It is a good idea to use a larger tray as some say. I find that with 8x10 I use a 11x14 tray with no problems. I keep it to six sheets max. Make sure you pre-soak the film. I DBI with this method and it is great. I started recently doing minimal agitation with Pyrocat HD in tanks and hangers. This works great for 4x5,5x7 and 8x10. I can take out each hanger and check. DBI is great this way also. So far no problems with uneven development. Just go slow and pay attention. I think if you let your mind wander while in the dark you have problems.

Jim

 

[Removed Account]

How do you develop by inspection? Wouldn't ANY light fog panchromatic film, or is DBI only possible with ortho?

- Justin

 

[eddie gunks]

what i do to make it a bit easier is i use 4 8x10 trays and only put in a few sheets per tray. at first i just put in 1 sheet per tray till i got used to it. i can do 4-6 with very little problems now using some of the above mentioned ideas.

eddie

 

[DrPablo]

I appreciate the suggestions. I have 3 8x10 trays and 3 11x14 trays. I've been using either PMK or xtol depending on the situation, and with FP4 or HP5. I develop my 4x5 and roll film in tanks, and I've found that they require a lot of agitation for even development -- but the same amount of agitation in trays overdevelops my 8x10 sheets. So I may end up doing a minimal agitation approach with one or two sheets at a time for 8x10. But with 4 or 6 sheets they stick together, I can't tell them apart, and I get scratches and uneven development. Pretty disheartening when it's such a pain to go out shooting to begin with.

 

[MikeK]

I use tubes for 5x7 and 8x10 - got them from J&C. Productivity is lower than tray processing (for me that is) but have never physically damaged a negative. For my work habit the most I can have on the go at any one time is four tubes.

Mike

 

[Alex Hawley]

But with 4 or 6 sheets they stick together, I can't tell them apart, and I get scratches and uneven development. Pretty disheartening when it's such a pain to go out shooting to begin with.

Don't feel bad Paul. That's the typical beginning experience. Now that you may have a few trashed negatives, try practicing using them with the lights on. Fill your developing tray with the same volume that you would normally use, except use water, not developer. Practice your shuffling techniques and observe what happens as you cycle through the sheets. I think you will be able to quickly refine your techniques and get it down to where you know how things should feel when they are going well and not so well. Then, turn off the lights and practice again so that you don't "cheat" with your vision.

 

[Ian Leake]

I'm not sure whether you're looking for alternatives to trays or to get tips on better technique. In case it's the former then I'd recommend expert drums.

While I still use trays for 11x14 sheets (one at a time), I use Jobo expert drums on a roller for everything else. It's saved me so much time and angst that I can't imagine using trays for 8x10 or 4x5 again.

 

[Jim Noel]

If you want to stay with trays and prevent the sticking when more than one is in a tray, place one sheet in a tray of water, wait about 30 seconds and place another, and so forth. This will prevent the sticking. Since I use a water stop bath, I just use that water to pre-soak.

Other methods:
1. Unicolor or Chromega drum on a roller base, or rolled by hand in the sink. An 8x10 drum will do one at a time, whil a 16x20 will do four.
2. A Jobo 3000 series drum for 8x10 film - does 5 at a time. Although best on a Jobo, they can be rolled by hand on a Jobo roller. I have been unsuccessful rolling them in the sink.

Times will need to be shortened when using constant agitation.

 

[Jim Fitzgerald]

How do you develop by inspection? Wouldn't ANY light fog panchromatic film, or is DBI only possible with ortho?

- Justin

Justin, I've been using Pyrocat HD as my developer for some time now. It is a staining developer. I wait until the development is about 80% done and then with my foot switch I turn on my Thomas safelight for a brief look. Once you do some negs this way it is relatively easy to do. I've used it on all of my films with no fog. I believe Pyro is the key, due to the staining properties. Go to the Azo site that Michael and Paula have for a more in depth discussion.

Jim

 

[Nick Zentena]

Jobo print drums but depends on how many sheets you want to use.

Smallest 2 8x10.
Biggest is 6? I forget.

The smaller tanks are cheap used and can be used on a roller base. The biggest are big enough to have balance problems on a roller.

 

[Amund]

Try some Photo-flo or similar in your prewet tray and in the developer, really makes life easier. The negs won`t stick and you`ll reduce the risk of scratches.

 

[DrPablo]

Thanks Amund, I've taken your advice before and used photo-flo in my prewetting tray, but I still lost 4 out of 6 negatives yesterday due to them sticking together. I probably didn't give them enough of a chance to become coated with the Photo-Flo.

I tried again today with 2 negs at a time and it worked fine. The unfortunate result, however, was I discovered how quickly PMK exhausts itself, because the second set of negatives were grossly underdeveloped. Live and learn

 

[ragc]

How do you develop by inspection? Wouldn't ANY light fog panchromatic film, or is DBI only possible with ortho?

- Justin

I second the question! Oldtimers, please educate us newbies!

 

[jmdavis]

I second the question! Oldtimers, please educate us newbies!

DBI is a method to tailor development of individual negatives. My only experience with it is with Large Format and Pyro developers (in my case Pyrocat HD). Read the articles below, and search the web and apug for others. There are literally hundreds of posts with useful information.

Here are some DBI resources:

http://www.michaelandpaula.com/mp/devinsp.html

http://www.unblinkingeye.com/Articles/Inspection/inspection.html

 

[Alex Hawley]

- but I still lost 4 out of 6 negatives yesterday due to them sticking together. I probably didn't give them enough of a chance to become coated with the Photo-Flo.

Paul, the trick to keeping them from sticking is all in the manipulation during the shuffle and in between. Surface tension adhesion between the film sheets is the big culprit that causes the sticking. You kind of have to keep the negs in a loose stack. That's why I recommend practicing with the lights on so you can see what's going on and get your finger/hand movements coordinated to prevent the sticking. Its all in the hand and finger movements.

 

[jmdavis]

Paul, the trick to keeping them from sticking is all in the manipulation during the shuffle and in between. Surface tension adhesion between the film sheets is the big culprit that causes the sticking. You kind of have to keep the negs in a loose stack. That's why I recommend practicing with the lights on so you can see what's going on and get your finger/hand movements coordinated to prevent the sticking. Its all in the hand and finger movements.

That's good advice Alex.

I've been thinking more and more about Jorge's brush development. It may be somewhat slower but I really like his results. My only experience was using a foam brush and that was not a resounding success.

Mike

 

[Curt]

Iv'e got these stainless steel hangers that go into hard rubber tanks and you can do semistand, stand, continuous agitation or anything you want with them and they don't scratch. Give them a try.

I may be the only one using them now though. I have all sizes from 2x3 to 8x10 and the hard rubber tanks in the appropriate sizes.

 

[Alex Hawley]

That's good advice Alex.

I've been thinking more and more about Jorge's brush development. It may be somewhat slower but I really like his results. My only experience was using a foam brush and that was not a resounding success.

Mike

Thanks Mike. I've been thinking about brush development too since I got the 7x17. As I recall, Jorge once posted a thread on how to do it. Anyone have any idea if it still exists? (I guess I could do a search and answer my own question.)

 

[jmdavis]

Thanks Mike. I've been thinking about brush development too since I got the 7x17. As I recall, Jorge once posted a thread on how to do it. Anyone have any idea if it still exists? (I guess I could do a search and answer my own question.)

I remember googling and finding something on photo.net.

The process was to use a wide, soft haike brush and use a smooth motion first up and down across the whole negative and then side to side alternating the process.

 

[jmdavis]

I found a good description here:

(there was a url link here which no longer exists)

 

[Alex Hawley]

Thanks Mike. Looks like the pnet thread is the one.