Alternative process and CD4?

[Color Photographer]

There is one "secret" that can be used to abuse color films.

PE

Thanks PE

This Information is very helpful for me

And what is this "secret" to abuse the film ??? Please let me know...

If I wash the film after the development and before the bleach, the water gets red/orange. Why?

And a second question please, what goes wrong in the negative development so some images have a red/magenta cast (the prints) ?
Can a weak cyan dye be the reason? What can I do? Higher temperatures and reduced agitation? During my experiments I see that adding some washing soda to the developer seems to reduce this redish/magenta cast. But I cannot explain why.

Mostly I use only Kodak Negative Film and buy them in greater batches to have reproducible results.
I store them frozen at -18C

 

[Photo Engineer]

The one secret is to use one or more of the variables that I gave you. That is it!

The film is pink due to dyes washing out of the film. These are trimmer and acutance dyes used to adjust speed and contrast.

IDK what your workflow or chemistry is so I cannot possibly answer this question.

And: That was three questions.

PE

 

[Color Photographer]

Ah I understand

Now I have all I need to do more experiments
Thousands of possible combinations

The film is pink due to dyes washing out of the film. These are trimmer and acutance dyes used to adjust speed and contrast.

And: That was three questions.

PE

And the washing out of these dyes should be done in regular process, without negative effect?
In Kodaks C41 the Bleach follows directly to the developement.

This was the 4th and last question (today)

Thank you very much. Why we should be limited to BW and Digital only.
There are so much great cameras and color material around.

(Maybe I find a way get Kodachrome like Colors. It was a great mistake, never to use this film.)

 

[Photo Engineer]

The dyes that I mentioned above are designed to wash out in the color process. The bleach follows development unless you get streaking. In that case, Kodak suggests the use of a 1 - 2% Acetic Acid stop after the color developer.

PE

 

[Athiril]

EIR colour is mapping infrared to the red portion of the image, red to the green portion of the image, and green to the blue portion of the image, blue light is filtered out and not used.

If you dont mind shooting on a tripod and taking 3 separate exposure, you could recombine this into something similar, you would need regular B&W pan film and infrared B&W film. 1 IR exposure with an IR filter on the IR film, one red exposure with a red filter on the B&W pan film, and one green exposure with a green filter on the B&W pan film (well either film really). If you can't change films easily between shots, then all on the IR film might be okay, dunno how close the red filter will come out to the IR filter though.

You would have to combine those later by scanning and digitally putting them into red (ir), green (red), and blue (green) channels respectively. You could also try printing them onto RA-4 back through colour filters filters added perhaps onto another filter made of unexposed and process C-41 film (or just fixed C-41 film), it would be a real PITA.




Washing after C-41 Developer
I also recommend a stop after developer if you intend to wash before the bleach. A straight up wash/rinse alters the negative quality depending on your water. At one place I lived it didn't seem to do anything, so I never noticed and got into the habit of just washing after developer. Another place I lived after that, all my negs came out fogged, I remixed every bath about 3 times from scratch before deciding to try a stop randomly to inspect the negs physically before bleaching, after I finished processing those, they came out very nice. So now I stop or I bleach.

 

[Color Photographer]

I read that a reddish color E6 slide can be the result of low ph in the developer.
A higher ph correct will this, right? Is the same for color negative film?

So, what ist the best way to rise up the ph?
What chemicals act as PH boosters?

Thanks in advance

 

[Photo Engineer]

Use dilute Sulfuric Acid (about 3 - 5%) or Sodium Hydroxide (about 4%), and be very careful as these are very concentrated solutions and can burn skin easily. Wear gloves, goggles and a lab coat. Use a pH meter, not pH paper as the paper is not accurate enough.

PE

 

[Athiril]

I read that a reddish color E6 slide can be the result of low ph in the developer.
A higher ph correct will this, right? Is the same for color negative film?

So, what ist the best way to rise up the ph?
What chemicals act as PH boosters?

Thanks in advance

I think you're going to have to start from the beginning... how about a book recommendation for him?

 

[Photo Engineer]

"Photographic Chemistry" by Eaton. Similar books by Mason, Anchell and Troop, Mees, Haist, Mees and James. The list is long. But, you are right Dan and I was thinking the same thing. Our correspondent probably needs to do some reading before he jumps in.

PE

 

[Color Photographer]

Thanks, I am very careful with all these stuff, because I have little chemical background. So I read every time the safety instructions before I use them. I try to get them.

A good ph meter would be necessary too.

Thanks for the book recommendation. Some books will help a lot.

 

[Color Photographer]

Where can I found the formulas for C41 Chemistry?

I have here Fuji Hunts Professional C41 Parts A, B, and C
Is there any way to know whats in these parts?

As far as I know A contains Potasium Carbonate,
Part B HAS, and Part C contains CD4 for color coupling.

But what is the developing agent for the silver halide in there?

 

[Photo Engineer]

The formulas are not published.

There is no sure way to tell what is in each part except to some extent from the labels.

CD-4 is the developing agent for Silver Halide.

PE

 

[Color Photographer]

Then only CD-4 and some Alkali can develop (with wrong colors) a color negative film?

 

[Photo Engineer]

Yes, it can, but the image will not be correct due to the lack of other ingredients. The relative colors will be correct for a color negative film as far as that goes.

I do strongly suggest some reading before you jump into what could be an extensive and expensive project. It always pays to be prepared.

PE

 

[Color Photographer]

I´m searching for these books and all information I can find on the web.
Most of the old books are not easy to get, but I try. Also I ordered a good digital ph-meter.

 

[RPC]

Where can I found the formulas for C41 Chemistry?

This formula is probably not exactly what the manufacturers use but seems to give me good results:


Distilled water, 125 degrees F, 50 degrees C 800 ml
potassium carbonate 34.5 g
potassium bicarbonate 2.3 g
sodium sulfite .4 g
sodium metabisulfite 3.0 g
potassium iodide 1.2 mg
sodium bromide 1.3 g
hydroxylamine sulfate 2.4 g
CD-4 4.5 g
Add water to make 1 liter

Adjust pH to 10.0-10.2

 

[Athiril]

iirc the recipe held in highest regard on APUG is "C-27" found here - (there was a url link here which no longer exists)

 

[RPC]

Highest regard by whom?

 

[Athiril]

It just seemed to be the general consensus with testing behind it.

 

[Athiril]

Yes. CD-4 develops a silver image, while the oxidised product iirc then forms dye at the centers of the development sites with the colour couplers built into the film, so technically you could also develop B&W film with it (as long as you didn't bleach the B&W film).

The MSDS states a rough amount of how much stuff is in some part, it excludes stuff in very small volumes, with that in mind you can get a rough amount of how much major components are in a part.

Eg; one of the many MSDS's for one of the many different Flexicolor (Kodak) Part C's state:

10 - 15 4-(N-ethyl-N-2-hydroxyethyl)-2-methylphenylenediamine sulfate (25646-77-9)
1 - 5 Sodium bisulphite (7631-90-5)

It's a rough amount but it gives a starting point for the composition.

You can titrate it with a base to see how much acid is in there. And you weigh 10mL or 100mL or x mL to work out the density.

Then given the density of the individual components you can arrive at a closer value to how much CD-4 is in that part, which you can use for mixing your own experiments if you wish, you then also know how much base you need to neutralise it too... of course some basic chemistry knowledge of fundamental concepts should come first.






Experimenting is great fun and interesting to try lots of different things. I started out experimenting with random things.. but I had to balance that with my photography, and just do it the standard way with kit chemicals as well, otherwise I wouldn't get anything out of my photography.

 

[Color Photographer]

Are CD-1, CD-2, CD-3 and CD-4 the only color developing agents that exist, or have other chemicals to a (maybe slight) color development capability?

 

[Photo Engineer]

Many others exist. CD-3, CD-4 and CD-6 were the ones in main use recently. CD-6 has been dropped as it was used in Kodachrome.

PE

 

[iranzi]

There are other colour developing agents aside from the CDs. They are all listed and discussed in the books Photo Engineer had mentioned. These are the best photographic chemistry books, very in-depth and thorough. The prior knowledge of chemistry is really needed to understand most of it. But even without it I still got something useful out of this stuff. And as you learn more the books will reveal more as well.
You can find most of them on amazon or via bookfinder.com
Except for Haist they aren't expensive.

 

[Color Photographer]

I ordered the Book from Eaton, the others are more expensive.
But delivery can be up to 3 weeks.

 

[iranzi]

there are a few interesting discussion treads on flikr about intensification/amplification processing, bleach bypass, homebrew colour and b&w chemistry for colour films and paper, cross-processing, etc etc., and lots of examples. And of course APUG has lots and lots of amazing information about all these things. Also British Journal of Photography had a wealth of colour processing information, from the early 1960's onwards (probably earlier as well). The annuals could be bought fairly cheap. Or try the nearest large library.