Alternative E6 First Developer

mjbovee · Jun 29, 2022

I'm looking into potential alternatives to the specified first dev for E6 processing (largely because I can't seem to get my hands on HQMS). I was wondering if anyone has had success substituting with other developers or has come up with any viable formulas that omit HQMS? Also, what sorts of characteristics would be beneficial in a potential E6 first developer?

For my purposes, "close enough" is generally okay.

Rudeofus · Jun 30, 2022

There is an old formula developed by Derek Watkins in this document. YMMV.

Donald Qualls · Jun 30, 2022

I've been meaning to try a method I saw (with example film strip photos, good Dmax and nice colors) with Rodinal 1:25 for 15 minutes at E-6 temperature as first dev. Went so far as to buy a couple liter packages of Cinestill E-6 reversing color developer; got some 120 size Ektachrome around to test on.

LeoniD · Jun 30, 2022

I've developed several types of e6 film in soviet formula with great results. Without test strips I don't think it will be possible to tell that a different developer was used

The recipe is (taken from the original ЦО kit):

pack. A: phenidone-0.25g

hydroquinone-4.5g

potassium bromide-2.0g

Trilon B-2.0g

pack. B: sodium sulfite anhydrous-40g

sodium tetraborate-15g

potassium carbonate-20g or sodium carbonate-15g

potassium iodide-0.01g (yellow-blue balance, more iodide-more yellow)

pack. C: potassium thiocyanate-2.5g

Dissolve the contents of packages B and C in 800ml of water, then dissolve the contents of package A. Bring the volume up to 1l, filter the solution. Developer shouldn't be used earlier than 24h after mixing.

LeoniD · Jun 30, 2022

Donald Qualls said:
I've been meaning to try a method I saw (with example film strip photos, good Dmax and nice colors) with Rodinal 1:25 for 15 minutes at E-6 temperature as first dev. Went so far as to buy a couple liter packages of Cinestill E-6 reversing color developer; got some 120 size Ektachrome around to test on.

Doesn't p-aminophenol act as a color developing agent? Not a good one, but it still should produce a negative image from dyes

Donald Qualls · Jun 30, 2022

LeoniD said:
Doesn't p-aminophenol act as a color developing agent? Not a good one, but it still should produce a negative image from dyes

I think you're confusing p-aminophenol with polyphenylene-diamine (PPD), which was the basis of the early color developers like CD-1 and CD-2. P-aminophenol is chemically close to Metol (n-methyl p-aminophenol sulfate).

Of course, most organic developers have oxidation products that are dyes of some kind -- that's why they turn yellow/brown/black as they oxidize in the bottle.

LeoniD · Jun 30, 2022

No, no. I didn't mean para-phenylenediamine. I can't find the thread where results of using Rodinal/p-aminophenol as a color dev were posted, but here's what PE said

Post in thread 'TRI-PROCESS E6 FILM/BW DEV/C41 BLIX' https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/tri-process-e6-film-bw-dev-c41-blix.53774/post-785257

Donald Qualls · Jun 30, 2022

Hmmm. Okay, looks like it mainly produces yellow/brown dyes, at least as far as the dye couplers are able to grab, and of course in a negative image (hence the mostly-blue seen in the Rodinal example at that link). Interesting. I've seen that E-6 first dev is PQ, so perhaps Xtol would be a better choice. You'd want stock solution, the same 15 minutes would be a good starting point.

mjbovee · Jun 30, 2022

Cool, thanks for the info everyone.

@Rudeofus working with sodium hydroxide scares me, I tend to avoid it. I might try this one eventually though.
@LeoniD I think I actually have everything needed for this, might give this a go soon.
@Donald Qualls I did use Rodinal once, long ago. I can't remember the times / temps, but I do remember I messed something up at some point in the process and ended up with super overdeveloped positives with totally blown highlights. I'll give Xtol a shot one of these days and report back

Rudeofus · Jun 30, 2022

@mjbovee : do not be afraid of Sodium Hydroxide. Treat it with respect - like all the other chems you use, and it will be kind to you and create a good developer. In every household there's a lot worse, which we never really think much about.

flavio81 · Jun 30, 2022

mjbovee said:
I'm looking into potential alternatives to the specified first dev for E6 processing (largely because I can't seem to get my hands on HQMS). I was wondering if anyone has had success substituting with other developers or has come up with any viable formulas that omit HQMS? Also, what sorts of characteristics would be beneficial in a potential E6 first developer?

For my purposes, "close enough" is generally okay.

E6 Homebrew, Chromebrew. Warnig, longer than assumend

E-6 Chromebrew For quite a long time now Im trying to develop my own E-6 Formular, inspired by the Watkins factor Cromebrew First developer Sodium hexametaphosphate (Calgon) 2.0 g Sodium sulphite, anhydrous 39.0 g Potassium carbonate...

www.photrio.com

Now, I thought the FD only needed to be a contrast-working developer. Thus, as far as I know, a strong developer like Dektol (or other paper developer) would work.

mjbovee · Jun 30, 2022

flavio81 said:
You will LOVE to check out this post:

E6 Homebrew, Chromebrew. Warnig, longer than assumend

E-6 Chromebrew For quite a long time now Im trying to develop my own E-6 Formular, inspired by the Watkins factor Cromebrew First developer Sodium hexametaphosphate (Calgon) 2.0 g Sodium sulphite, anhydrous 39.0 g Potassium carbonate...

www.photrio.com

Now, I thought the FD only needed to be a contrast-working developer. Thus, as far as I know, a strong developer like Dektol (or other paper developer) would work.

Awesome, thanks for sharing that thread. I was actually wondering if a paper dev would work for this.

flavio81 · Jun 30, 2022

mjbovee said:
Awesome, thanks for sharing that thread. I was actually wondering if a paper dev would work for this.

Search for the thread on developing E6 slide film as slide using C41 chemicals. They just use strong developers for the FD.

flavio81 · Jun 30, 2022

mjbovee said:
Awesome, thanks for sharing that thread. I was actually wondering if a paper dev would work for this.

We can always rely on Rowland Mowrey (RIP) aka "Photo Engineer" for the answers:

B&W Reversal - minimizing grain size

I've read that slides can have finer grain than negatives. Why is this exactly? Also, if I am using HC-110 (for example), will dilution B vs. dilution H result in larger/smaller grain? Or, will it make no difference? How does development temperature effect grain size? Thank you!

www.photrio.com

"Well, reversal first developers and second developers are not generally like normal negative developers. Among other things, first developers contain high levels of silver halide solvents and are high contrast developers like D-19 or something similar."

Can Kodak D76 be substituted for D94a by adding sodium thiosulphate?

Ok I see, thank you. However, the silver that is reduced (developed) in the first development will actually be bleached. And the ''fog+non developed silver'' is then the part left for positive developing. So if some of the positive part is bleached away, you'll lose on final density. And you...

www.photrio.com

"You have to recognize that in reversal processing, the first developer does not go to completion but the second developer does. Therefore, the first developer must have a tad of silver halide solvent in it to ensure that whites are white. To do this, a slight amount of fog is normally needed in the first developer to ensure that the second developer does not give gray whites."

VERY interesting thead on developing E6 with Rodinal as FD:

E6 film developed in Rodinal (B&W) and than c41

Hello, I was doing some experiments recently, with expired Fuji Velvia 100 (expired in 2007). - So here is the method I used. I shot the film in iso 50, and I developed it in rodinal (made by me) in 100:1 for one hour and I dont use fixer. After 1 hour (remember skipping fixing) I take the film...

www.photrio.com

"Ok, in this process of yours, the C41 developer is not the problem. It is the first developer. You need some silver halide solvent in the Rodinal to cause more development. This could be Potassium Thiocyanate or Hypo itself, or lots of Sulfite. Then the development time would change. As you say though, you have little film. So, the only easy answer is to increase time by a bit. How much is a guess."

Bronson Dugnutt · Jul 1, 2022

Paper developers are a good place to start. I use D-19 as a generic first developer for ad-hoc reversal processes (b&w or color) and can get acceptable results if I adjust the film's exposure index to account for D-19's lack of fixing agent (thiosulfate, thiocyanate) and it's impact on Dmin.

This Dmin adjustment can be applied at any step subsequent to (or during) development. I've gotten excellent transparencies from underexposed Pan F+ slides by partial bleaching and re-fixing after the too-dense positives had dried.

LeoniD · Jul 1, 2022

Donald Qualls said:
Hmmm. Okay, looks like it mainly produces yellow/brown dyes, at least as far as the dye couplers are able to grab, and of course in a negative image (hence the mostly-blue seen in the Rodinal example at that link). Interesting. I've seen that E-6 first dev is PQ, so perhaps Xtol would be a better choice. You'd want stock solution, the same 15 minutes would be a good starting point.

Strangely enough, xtol has been reported to produce dyes too. In case of p-aminophenol sodium sulfite in concentration >3g/l of developer should slow down or stop dye formation

mjbovee said:
Cool, thanks for the info everyone.

@Rudeofus working with sodium hydroxide scares me, I tend to avoid it. I might try this one eventually though.
@LeoniD I think I actually have everything needed for this, might give this a go soon.
@Donald Qualls I did use Rodinal once, long ago. I can't remember the times / temps, but I do remember I messed something up at some point in the process and ended up with super overdeveloped positives with totally blown highlights. I'll give Xtol a shot one of these days and report back

Glad to help. Will you post an update when you try it?

Donald Qualls · Jul 1, 2022

LeoniD said:
Strangely enough, xtol has been reported to produce dyes too. In case of p-aminophenol sodium sulfite in concentration >3g/l of developer should slow down or stop dye formation

Hmm. As you suggest, sulfite content ought to reduce this, since the dyes are an oxidation product of the developer, and one of sulfite's functions in a developer is as an antioxidant. I suppose one could dilute the Rodinal with a 0.3% sulfite solution (since even at 1:25 there won't be enough from the Rodinal concentrate).

Rudeofus · Jul 1, 2022

mjbovee said:
Awesome, thanks for sharing that thread. I was actually wondering if a paper dev would work for this.

E-6 FD is a powerful black&white developer, but that's not the whole story. The main challenge is to develop three film layers in lock step, so they have matching contrast across their dynamic range. E-6 FD is crafted such, that this becomes possible, and every E-6 film is created such, that this will indeed happen in E-6 FD. This will certainly not be guaranteed with random "strong B&W dev", but some film and some subject matter may give acceptable results.

Alternative E6 First Developer

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