Almost there with my first film development (advice needed)

[Ashfaque]

I'd like to develop a 35mm roll of HP5 Plus with Kodak HC-110. So I'd be grateful if you could answer these basic queries:
(1) I have some confusion of about the proportion. For e.g., Dilution B is 1:31. Does this mean "1 part HC-110 + 31 Part water (=> 32 parts =>) = total 300 ml, or something else?
(2) If the proportion of a developer comes to a fraction, suppose 7.45 ml, should I round off up to 8.0 ml, 7.50 ml or, down to 7.0 ml?
(3) I'll be using Jobo 1510 tank. The accompanied paper says that the minimum solution with inversion technique is 250 ml. Will it ok to use any of the dilution in table 2 of technical specs of HC-110 (see p. 2)?
(4) I wanted use dilution B (1:31) for the HP5+. But, in the unofficial page, under Ilford Films, it is mentioned "If a development time with dilution B is less than 5 minutes, I recommend changing to dilution D and developing about 25% longer." It is exactly 5 minutes with Dilution B for HP5+. So, with dilution D (1:39), is it around 1:15 second more => total dev. time of 6:15?
(5) Please recommend me the safest agitation scheme.
(5) I will be using Fotospeed SB50 stop bath (1:19), Tetenal Superfix Odourless (1:4) and Tetenal Mirasol (1:400) wetting agent. Is there anything else I should do or aware of?

I am possibly thinking too much. But there you go!

Best regards,

Ashfaque

 

[andrew.roos]

1. Yes
2. Just measure it as accurately as your equipment allows. Don't round off unnecessarily.
3. Yes. However note that while most dilutions can be reused, Dilution F is for once-off use only. Also, you will get slightly different results depending on the dilution. The more dilute the solution, the more pronounced will be the "edge effects" at boundaries between light and dark tones.
4. Five minutes should be OK, but not less than this as it can result in inconsistent development.
5. I use 5 inversions every minute. For a short development time like 5 minutes I would make that perhaps 3 inversions every 30 seconds.
6. I don't use these particular brands, but they sound about right.

Good luck
Andrew

 

[Alex Muir]

You are right about 1:31 being a total of 32 parts. When you work in millilitres you tend to get odd quantities of concentrate. I assume the various dilutions were calculated with fluid ounces in mind, rather than millilitres. Because the concentrate is very concentrated, you have to be careful about rounding up or down. I sometimes make slightly more than required to get an even volume in ml of the concentrate. Once it's thoroughly mixed, I only pour in the correct volume for the tank I'm using and bin the rest. Kodak seem to recommend 5 secs agitation every 30 secs, whereas Ilford go for 10 secs every minute. I tend to agitate constantly for the first minute, then 10 secs per minute. There is a site by Covington Innovations that gives lots of good info about HC110. I tend to use Dil E which is 1:47, but instead make it 1:49. I use the published times for Dil E and it seems to work ok. 1:49 gives a total of 50 parts and is easier to mix in ml volumes. One thing you need to ensure is that you use a minimum volume of concentrate per film. I believe 6 ml is the recommended minimum. That means that whatever your dilution, or final volume of working solution, it should contain at least 6ml of concentrate for each film. I hope that makes sense!

Alex.

 

[AgX]

You are right about 1:31 being a total of 32 parts.

No.
That would be 1+31

1:31 means 1 part in 31 parts final solution (thus 1 part filled up to make 31 parts)

(In case there is no volume reduction you could simplify that to 1+30)

 

[andrew.roos]

No.
That would be 1+31

1:31 means 1 part in 31 parts final solution (thus 1 part filled up to make 31 parts)

(In case there is no volume reduction you could simplify that to 1+30)

However the Kodak datasheet for HC-110 states (table bottom of page 2) that for Dilution B the ratio of concentrate to water is 1:31. So in conventional terminology, Dilution B is actually a 1+31 solution and to make 250 ml of solution you would mix 7.8 ml of concentrate with 242.2 ml of water, just as the OP assumed.

 

[NedL]

Hi AgX, I am not a chemist, but my degrees are in mathematics, physics, and statistics.

We'd normally interpret x:y to mean a ratio: "x parts to y parts", at least as taught in this country. I can see that it could be interpreted in a consistent way to mean "x parts in y parts" but if I used it that way in a statistical paper, it would cause confusion! When reading an equation with a proportion denoted by a colon, we'd usually use the word "to" and not the word "in". I suppose this could be an Americanism that I'm not aware of.

(there was a url link here which no longer exists)!

No.
That would be 1+31

1:31 means 1 part in 31 parts final solution (thus 1 part filled up to make 31 parts)

(In case there is no volume reduction you could simplify that to 1+30)

 

[Alex Muir]

No.
That would be 1+31

1:31 means 1 part in 31 parts final solution (thus 1 part filled up to make 31 parts)

(In case there is no volume reduction you could simplify that to 1+30)

I would have thought the same as you and, in fact, I prefer to use the 1+x type description of mixtures, but the ratio type description seems to be quite widely used by manufacturers.

Alex

 

[Ashfaque]

First of all, thank you all very much.

Alex: Thanks for the advice on minimum of 6ml dev thingy. I somehow missed that important piece of information whilst reading at covingtoninnovations.com

Q. regarding inversion: which option (10 per min, or 5 per 30 seconds) would be better in terms of more clarity (without generating more pronounced grain)?

@Andrew and AgX: I guess you guys are saying the same thing, but saying different ways. I read Jey's post on ratio's few days ago. But I was still confused. Now, I noticed in the table 2 of HC-110's tech. spec. file, the right column is called "Ratio of Concentrate to Water". Under that we see 1:31 for Dilution B, 1:39 for D, etc.

Anyway, here is my summary regarding dilution/proportion, for example,

1. HC-110, Dilution B: 1:31 => 1 part dev., mix with 31 parts water = total 250 ml, for 5 minutes,
2. Or, Dilution D: 1:39 => 1 part dev., mix with 39 parts water = total 250 ml, for 5 min *125% = 6 mins 15 secs
3. Fotospeed SB50 (Stop Bath): (1:19) => 1 part stop, mix with 19 parts water = total 250 ml,
4. Tetenal Superfix (Fix Bath): (1:4) => 1 part fix, mix with 4 parts water = total 250 ml
5. Mirasol 2000 Antistatic (wetting agent): (1:400): => 1 part Mirasol 2000, mix with 400 parts water = total 250 ml

Am I correct to assume that Fotospeed, and Tetenal are following the same rule?

Bests,

 

[summicron1]

I would have thought the same as you and, in fact, I prefer to use the 1+x type description of mixtures, but the ratio type description seems to be quite widely used by manufacturers.

Alex

as a practical matter, the difference between 1:31 and 1+31 is a very tiny percentage -- what, two? three? -- that won't impact how the film develops. A 3 percent reduction/increase in a ten minute development time is only 18 seconds, after all. It takes you that long to dump the chemistry out or in

 

[480sparky]

as a practical matter, the difference between 1:31 and 1+31 is a very tiny percentage -- what, two? three? -- that won't impact how the film develops. A 3 percent reduction/increase in a ten minute development time is only 18 seconds, after all. It takes you that long to dump the chemistry out or in

Until you get something that is 1+3 or 1+4. Now you're talking about a real difference.

 

[Kirks518]

Most of your questions have already been answered, but I'll add that the minimum amount of HC-110 that needs to be used is 6ml per roll of 35mm. So you want to make sure that if your dilution math calls for less then 6ml of the HC-110, you want to increase the total volume of final developer so that you have at least 6ml of HC-110 in it. Now there are folks that say you'll do fine if there is less then 6ml, which may be true, but I tend to err on the safe side, and always make sure there is at least 6ml in my tank. In the case of you 250ml total with a 1:31 (1+31), you'll be using 8ml, so you'll be fine.

You may also want to check out http://www.digitaltruth.com/devchart.php , which helped me greatky when I started developing (which was only a couple of months ago).

 

[MattKing]

Jason Brunner's article about using 1+49 is very persuasive: (there was a url link here which no longer exists) . I have adapted 1 + 49 for use in a replenishment regime. It does mean using 300 ml of working solution per roll.

5 seconds every 30 seconds will give very, very similar results to 10 seconds every 60 seconds, as long as your developing time is sufficiently long.

 

[Ashfaque]

Thanks a lot for the link (now bookmarked), and tips, Matt. Since I'm planning to use 250 ml (Jobo 1510), do you think it is ok, if I were to use 6 ml (the minimum thingy mentioned at Covington) at (there was a url link here which no longer exists)? FYI, the HP5+ roll has around 28 frames.

I have another query, how many minutes should I fix the film with 'Tetenal Superfix Odourless'? All it says in the package is that we should fix films for 3-5 minutes at 20C. Should I follow the same agitation method that I would use during development stage or something else?

Bests,

Ashfaque

 

[MattKing]

6ml at 1 + 49 ends up being 300ml.

But if you are using shorter rolls, you almost certainly don't need the full 6ml - 5ml at 1 + 49 ends up being 250 ml, which is your target.

Lots of people use less then the 6ml recommended by Kodak, but I'm quite conservative about things like that.

I usually use a clip test to confirm the time in the fixer - you should fix film for a minimum of twice the length of time that it takes to clear a clip of film.

Put a drop of fixer on a clip (scrap) of your film. Let it stand for about a minute, until you see it clearing under the drop.

Then put the clip into a small amount of fixer at the same time you start fixing the film, and start timing. When the film has gone from cloudy to clear, and you can't see where the drop was, the film has cleared. Note how much time has elapsed, because your total fixing time needs to be at least twice that time.

For films like T-Max, it is best to fix for three times the clearing time.

It is a good idea to record how long the clearing time is for your fix when it is new. That way you can track how the activity changes as the fixer ages. A general rule is that when the clearing time slows to twice as long as for fresh fix, then it is time to replace the fix. This is, of course, assuming that you are re-using your film fixer.

The agitation you use for developer is fine for stop and fixer and wash aid too.

 

[Ashfaque]

Hello everyone,

I finally have developed B&W film myself at home. Happy to see that there some images. However, I may have 2-3 issues. Please see the linked images:
Images 1: Scan--black stain on the edge at the start of the film. Is that due to less fixing or fogging? I don't see that type black stains in latter frames. FYI, I fixed for 5 mins & 30 secs.
Image 2: Scan--black spot and too bright portion (possibly fogging). In case you don't know, I slightly opened the bulk roll (there was a url link here which no longer exists)!
Image 3: Scan--black marks (possibly fixing issue), and too bright portion (possibly fogging)

Unfortunately I don't have my scanner with me. So I scanned the neg whilst they are still drying and holding the light source behind the image! Any clues and tips you can share to improve negative quality for this one (and others in the future) would be very helpful.

Bests,

Ashfaque

PS: I forgot to thank Matt and others since my last post. So thank you and other APUG members who've been helping me throughout. Feeling wonderful (even though it is far from perfect)

 

[Sirius Glass]

Image 2 may be something that some of us around here call the Sun.
Image 1 may suffer from improper agitation.

Work on agitation and washing the film. It will come quickly with experience.

 

[jimjm]

Ashfaque -

Image 1 black stain on the edge of the film is most likely where the film was touching the reel in the developing tank. Depending on your agitation method, the developer and/or fixer did not adequately reach the film in that spot. I still have that occasionally using Paterson tanks and plastic reels, but as long as it does not intrude past the sprocket holes, it is not a problem.

Image 2 bright areas is most likely fogging, especially since you said you accidentally exposed the bulk roll. As you shoot and develop the film from that bulk roll, you will likely be seeing this problem again, but it will be unpredictable as to where it will occur. The black spot looks like something wet dripped on the film before development. It's important to ensure your hands are absolutely clean and dry when you bulk-load film, or load the developing reels before putting them in the tank.

Image 3 also has the fogging issue (you'll probably see the pop up for the rest of this bulk roll). Also you've splattered/spilled some liquid on the film when loading the rolls, or when loading your tank. Cleanliness is absolutely essential when handling film, before and after shooting.

Since you're still learning how to develop, you can save a lot of frustration by shooting pre-packaged rolls rather than this contaminated bulk roll you're using. Once you get confident in the developing process and get consistent results, use the rest of the bulk roll with the understanding that some of it will be ruined.

Good luck!

 

[Bill Burk]

Ashfaque,

Image 1: Slight black on edges of film - I think might be a bit of light leak from the felt seal of the cartridge. Are your reusable cartridges in good shape?

Fogging in Images 2 and 3: I think is the real deal, fogging of the bulk roll when you opened it.

Image 2: Black spot - If it was the sun it would be white. Could a drop of fix have hit the film before it went in the developer? Seems like that would make a clear spot on the negative.

Image 3: Chemical issues - jimjm already recommends cleanliness. I'll just add that I think it makes an interesting effect that you might want to remember how to do it so you can try repeating the effect later - on purpose.

 

[Sirius Glass]

Image 2: Black spot - If it was the sun it would be white. Could a drop of fix have hit the film before it went in the developer? Seems like that would make a clear spot on the negative.

 

[Ashfaque]

SG, Jim, and Bill: Thanks a lot for your help. After posting those images, I couldn't resist but do another wetting agent wash. Now those large water spots are not there any more. At least, not visible when I hold them in front of the room light.

@ Sirius Glass: Can you please explain that Sun you're referring to. Might be useful to know for future.

@ Jim: Thank you for the idea of using another film. Unfortunately, B&W films are not readily available in Dhaka now. But I'll follow your advise of using another film which I haven't screwed up. So I'll use RPX 400 (or, Retro 80S). (I have some Neopan 400. But don't want to use them right now as I'm still prone to simpler mistakes.

Re the black marks on the edge at the beginning

@Jim: Thanks for the information on the potential wounding/reel issue. My Jobo is a new unit. I didn't use it before, other than practising with a dummy roll.

@ Bill: Yes, I am using reloadable cassettes. I'll put a tape around the opening on that cassette and see if it helps. Or it could also be a problem due to light leaks.

I'll try to verify the problems by doing smaller rolls. This time I'll use RPX 400.


Re Agitation

- I initially got confused as it took me 15-20 secs to put in the developer. So I started the 1st 30 seconds of agitation after around 55 secs. IIRC, my agitation was a bit weird. To use cricket term, I used the googly style hand movement - i.e., spinning and inverting the tank at the same time.

- I then continued with 2 inversion with spinning at every 30 secs, followed by tapping the tank once. At one point I was spinning the reel in opposite direction - i.e., leg spin & off spin - more cricket terms for you! Could this inconsistency in agitation be a reason?


Re Developer mixing

Now this could be a silly mistake. I mixed 6 ml+244 distilled water (DW) at temp around 23 C and stired the soup. I noticed that HC-110 is very thick. So I waited around 60-90 minutes for the mix to be equally mixed and left the soup open on a mixing jug at a temp around 20C. Is it possible that I may have reduced the developer's activity by living it open, or, by not mixing it at a higher temperature and then reaching for 20C (, i.e., not uniformly mixed) or both?


Re contamination

- My hands were very clean. So was the tank. But when I was practising with the Jobo reel, I did it inside my blanket. Then I blowed off any possible dust specs. Note that Jobo 1501 reel (that goes inside 1510 tank) is white. So I may have missed those nasty static dust particles. Can those be the the reason I see those black spots in the negatives.

- I used the same mixing jug to pour in the developer (8:00) and fixer bath (5:30). In between, there was a slight DW wash (1 wash for about 30 seconds) after developer, and stop bath (20-30 seconds). After every stage, I was cleaning the used items with running water.

- After fixing I used the running water for about 11 minutes, followed by 60 seconds in wetting agent with DW. Our water supply is from a local deep tube. Can that be a culprit too?


Sorry for the long post. Hopefully, I can identify the problems with your helps before my next development.

Bests,

Ashfaque

 

[RattyMouse]

Re Developer mixing

Now this could be a silly mistake. I mixed 6 ml+244 distilled water (DW) at temp around 23 C and stired the soup. I noticed that HC-110 is very thick. So I waited around 60-90 minutes for the mix to be equally mixed and left the soup open on a mixing jug at a temp around 20C. Is it possible that I may have reduced the developer's activity by living it open, or, by not mixing it at a higher temperature and then reaching for 20C (, i.e., not uniformly mixed) or both?
Ashfaque

HC-110 goes straight into water and mixes in almost instantly. I normally add the syrup, mix for 15 seconds or so and then if temps are right, it goes right into the tank. No need at all to wait at all to mix this developer in. Simple agitation gets it all in very quickly.

 

[andrew.roos]

Hello everyone,
I finally have developed B&W film myself at home. Happy to see that there some images. However, I may have 2-3 issues. Please see the linked images:
Images 1: Scan--black stain on the edge at the start of the film. Is that due to less fixing or fogging? I don't see that type black stains in latter frames. FYI, I fixed for 5 mins & 30 secs.
Image 2: Scan--black spot and too bright portion (possibly fogging). In case you don't know, I slightly opened the bulk roll (there was a url link here which no longer exists)!
Image 3: Scan--black marks (possibly fixing issue), and too bright portion (possibly fogging)

Congratulations on developing your first roll of film!

I agree with Bill that the black mark on the side of the fim in Image 1 is fogging. I see a trace of it on the left hand side as well as on the right, so I don't think it's caused by the tank not having enough developer or fixer. It also doesn't seem related to the sproket holes. Some edge fogging is quite common and not a problem provided it does no intrude onto the image area. Again bill's advice to check your cannisters is good, but it could also be from when you opened the bulk roll.

The bright areas in the positive images are almost certainly inadvertent film exposure, either from a light leak in the camera or (more likely) from having opened the bulk roll.

The black spots are concerning me. They definitely look like chemical contamination of some type which I haven't seen before. Your procedures don't sound too sloppy, so I'm wondering whether your bulk roll could have been contaminated at some point? I suggest that you shoot a roll of new, off the shelf film, and see how that compares. That will at least eliminate the bulk roll exposure and any possible contamination of the bulk roll as a cause of problems.

Once you've confirmed that your technique is good (I'm pretty sure it is) then I suggest you try developing a short piece from the bulk roll without first exposing it in camera. Use a length at least one turn of the bulk roll long (i.e. one circumference) to pick up problems which may only be on one side of the bulk roll. This will show you which problems come from the bulk roll itself.

I don't think you leg spin and googly agitation is the cause of any of these problems. Agitation problems will be more subtle. Just remember, no bouncers! Same with developer mixing.

Good luck
Andrew

 

[Xmas]

Use your arm ball.
Stop thinking you are facing a school girl side.
I need to use lots of surfant and a pukka film squeegee cause of water quality I live between two chalk rivers.
Read up on ilfords archival wash - google
The rest of your bulk will be better I use a changing bag for 1000.0 foot of cine.

 

[Ashfaque]

RM, Andrew and Xmas: Thanks gents.

RM: Good to know that. Any possibility of the HC-110 being exhausted if I were keep it open after preparing the developer solution?

Andrew & Xmas: Even though I don't play cricket anymore, it is good to know that I can convey the msg and getting responses in kind.

I don't have a squeeze. May have to get one. Since our water supply is from a deep tube well in our area (very good for health), it might contain a few things not so good for films. So, I'll continuously agitate the film during the 'running water wash' next time. If that doesn't work, I'll give the ilford wash method a try.

Another possible culprit is the DW: It came from a battery (for cars, UPS, etc) shop. I wanted to buy DW from the scientific equipment shop from where I got the measuring jugs and other stuffs. The shop owner advised me to buy the DW from any battery shops as they are the same thing. I checked the label, it was clearly written DW and without any additive. Another possibility is that it is just normal tap water sold as DW! I won't be surprised! Hopefully using another film with careful agitation scheme and vigorous final washing will help me.

Bests,

Ashfaque

 

[RattyMouse]

RM, Andrew and Xmas: Thanks gents.

RM: Good to know that. Any possibility of the HC-110 being exhausted if I were keep it open after preparing the developer solution?

I don't think mixed HC-110 has a short life span. 90 minutes of sitting would not affect this dilution.

You didn't do anything wrong. You just did some things that were unnecessary.