Alkaline batteries suck.

MattKing · Jul 3, 2021

I expect that if there hadn't been a bunch of globalization, the expensive, high quality, less fully featured locally produced products would be gathering dust on local retailer's shelves and the delivery vans would be dropping off the more fully featured, lower quality and lower price products manufactured elsewhere at all your neighbour's homes.
Perhaps yours as well.
It is really difficult to convince consumers to pay more for better quality. It is easier to convince them to pay more for more "features", and it is incredibly difficult to convince them to pay more for local production - particularly in a world where so much is purchased over the internet.
Hopefully, this is cyclical. The manufacturing base in the US and Canada became structurally inflexible. A whole bunch was off-shored. The industry has been disrupted. The US and Canada has the opportunity to modernize and become more flexible. With shorter delivery times and simplified cross-border issues, US and Canadian manufacturing becomes competitive again.
Unfortunately, modernization and flexibility probably means far more automation and far fewer employees. Most of those historical manufacturing jobs are gone forever.
We in Canada make a large percentage of the parts used in US and Canadian car and truck manufacturing plants. That still happens because the modernization and flexibility decisions were made a while ago.

CMoore · Jul 3, 2021

MattKing said:
I expect that if there hadn't been a bunch of globalization, the expensive, high quality, less fully featured locally produced products would be gathering dust on local retailer's shelves and the delivery vans would be dropping off the more fully featured, lower quality and lower price products manufactured elsewhere at all your neighbour's homes.
Perhaps yours as well.
It is really difficult to convince consumers to pay more for better quality. It is easier to convince them to pay more for more "features", and it is incredibly difficult to convince them to pay more for local production - particularly in a world where so much is purchased over the internet.
Hopefully, this is cyclical. The manufacturing base in the US and Canada became structurally inflexible. A whole bunch was off-shored. The industry has been disrupted. The US and Canada has the opportunity to modernize and become more flexible. With shorter delivery times and simplified cross-border issues, US and Canadian manufacturing becomes competitive again.
Unfortunately, modernization and flexibility probably means far more automation and far fewer employees. Most of those historical manufacturing jobs are gone forever.
We in Canada make a large percentage of the parts used in US and Canadian car and truck manufacturing plants. That still happens because the modernization and flexibility decisions were made a while ago.

You have probably seen that 2003 movie Seabiscuit.?
I am paraphrasing-------
Early on, Jeff Bridges is working in a bicycle factory, and the foreman brings him a bunch of wheels to repair. He tells the foreman, we should use better spokes, and the foreman says.......Then you would not have a job would you.

The narrator was talking about the second industrial revolution and automation...... Furniture makers became knob turners, Seamstresses became button sowers..........and this was 1915.
Over 100 years ago.!

wiltw · Jul 3, 2021

Peter Schrager said:
It's so weird that in our lifetime we have to put up with so much B.S. from the offshoring of products. It's basically a huge scam which only rewards the large corporations and lines their pockets with more money.

And now, even Japan is offshoring the production of its products! Nikon Japan no longer making its cameras, but offshoring that.
We can blame the consumer always shopping the lowest price, and ignoring local retailers with higher prices, arguing 'the store hires idiots who know nothing so they cannot help me decide', so manufacturers need to do everything they can to lower the cost to retailers so they stay competitive with the Chinese products. China 2020 is the Japan of the 1960s

Huss · Jul 3, 2021

MattKing said:
..
It is really difficult to convince consumers to pay more for better quality. ...

See that's the problem. Products were not off-shored to cut prices to the consumers, but to maximize profits. So prices at the consumer level stayed the same or increased (with the corporation cry being 'we have to stay competitive!) - with the only ones benefitting being shareholders and C-level executives.

In the US, since 1978 the average worker's wage has increased by 11.9%.
The average CEO's wage has increased by 1008%

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/08/16/ceo...nd-now-make-278-times-the-average-worker.html

That funneling of all the money to the top is why we have sh1t batteries, cr@p products and all the rest.

wiltw · Jul 4, 2021

wiltw said:
I have generally found that I can leave alkaline cells in place in a device, if I merely break the circuit by shielding one terminial to break connectvity with thin plastic strip or even a layer of mylar adhesive tape on the battery terminal.
That is my general technique for flashlights that are used only durng electrical blackouts, or for radio remote transmitter/receiver trigger units that get pulled out once per year at best. The technicque is no different than electronics which come from the manufacturer pre-loaded with battery/cell, with a pull tab to activate.
The on/off switches in many devices do not open the electrical circuit, but very low current is used to monitor someone pressing the momentary contact switch, and that is when cells leak, under constant drain.

Well, time for me to eat crow! Today I was looking at my large format lenses, because each has its own cable release, and another thread raised the topic of throw in cable releases. I pulled out each of my lenses, and in the bottom of the large format kit was a single Duracell AA battery, loose in the bottom of the bag. Admittedly I had not touched the bag in over 10 years. The Duracell AA had corroded its bottom contact! So much for the belief that breaking circuit avoided corrosion.

MattKing · Jul 4, 2021

There may have been moisture/humidity in the bag.

wiltw · Jul 4, 2021

MattKing said:
There may have been moisture/humidity in the bag.

With all the other bare metal in that bag looking pristine, I am skeptical about that.

BrianShaw · Jul 4, 2021

I’ve had Duracell AA’s leak while outside of the device. It’s not that common but has happened twice that I can recall. It seems like that happened only with partially used cells because the stash of new (thrown together in a plastic bag) have never leaked.

benjiboy · Jul 4, 2021

CMoore said:
You have probably seen that 2003 movie Seabiscuit.?
I am paraphrasing-------
Early on, Jeff Bridges is working in a bicycle factory, and the foreman brings him a bunch of wheels to repair. He tells the foreman, we should use better spokes, and the foreman says.......Then you would not have a job would you.

The narrator was talking about the second industrial revolution and automation...... Furniture makers became knob turners, Seamstresses became button sowers..........and this was 1915.
Over 100 years ago.!

I recall in a job I once had complaining to the boss about how many problems I had, to which he replied: "if the company didn't have problems, they would have no need to employ you".

MattKing · Jul 4, 2021

wiltw said:
With all the other bare metal in that bag looking pristine, I am skeptical about that.

But did that bare metal come with a charge?
I'm not suggesting the batteries rusted. I'm suggesting that humidity would make them more prone to self-discharging.
When this (corrosion in a bag) has happened to me, the batteries have usually been far past their "use before date").

Sirius Glass · Jul 4, 2021

The basic problem is that when batteries suck, they have have blown.

ronwhit · Jul 4, 2021

I too have given up on Duracell. I had one AA leak while still in the original blister pack, and have had a 2-3 cheap LED flashlights quit due to leaky AAA Duracells. Worst case was a small Mag Light ruined by a leaky AA. It swelled up so much I had to drill it out of the aluminum body of the flashlight. (Yea, I know Duracell will supposedly replace a ruined light. Do you keep your receipts for 5 years? I don't.)
ronwhit

bunktheory65 · Aug 2, 2021

duracell is easiest to find.

Yet I go for energizer every chance i can.

But silver oxide doesnt always last longer. Had a good number of wien cell batteries come dead in the factory packaging. And more die after a single day inside the camera, with the meter turned off. Dont care to use silver oxide once i read the packaging and it said battery discharge started the moment the plastic was removed from the contact.

reddesert · Aug 2, 2021

bunktheory65 said:
But silver oxide doesnt always last longer. Had a good number of wien cell batteries come dead in the factory packaging. And more die after a single day inside the camera, with the meter turned off. Dont care to use silver oxide once i read the packaging and it said battery discharge started the moment the plastic was removed from the contact.

You're describing zinc-air cells like the Wein cell or hearing aid batteries, not silver oxide.

Zinc-air cells are a replacement (with drawbacks) for no-longer-available mercury 1.35 V cells. Silver oxide have a nominal voltage of 1.55 V. If silver oxide were a drop-in replacement, nobody would use the zinc-air cells.

(I use silver oxide or alkaline batteries in place of mercury batteries, but you have to be willing to test and recalibrate your light meter and/or put up with errors to go that route.)

bunktheory65 · Aug 2, 2021

reddesert said:
You're describing zinc-air cells like the Wein cell or hearing aid batteries, not silver oxide.

Zinc-air cells are a replacement (with drawbacks) for no-longer-available mercury 1.35 V cells. Silver oxide have a nominal voltage of 1.55 V. If silver oxide were a drop-in replacement, nobody would use the zinc-air cells.

(I use silver oxide or alkaline batteries in place of mercury batteries, but you have to be willing to test and recalibrate your light meter and/or put up with errors to go that route.)

according to bh photo some of the exeel silver oxide batteries have mercury despite the claim assembled in usa

MartinCrabtree · Aug 2, 2021

There's probably an "allowed" amount of mercury in production.

reddesert · Aug 2, 2021

The small amounts of mercury in current button batteries are distinguished from the larger amounts of mercury in the 1.35v mercuric oxide batteries that have been prohibited for many years. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silver-oxide_battery and https://www.epa.gov/mercury/mercury-batteries

Wikipedia: "Until recently, all silver-oxide batteries contained up to 0.2% mercury.[citation needed] The mercury was incorporated into the zinc anode to inhibit corrosion in the alkaline environment. Sony started producing the first silver-oxide batteries without added mercury in 2004."

EPA: "Zinc air, alkaline, and silver oxide button cell batteries contain small amounts of mercury. These batteries do not pose a health risk when in use since the chances of the mercury leaking out are small. The mercury in button cell batteries can escape into the environment after they have been thrown away and are either incinerated or end up in landfills. Though there are no federal regulations prohibiting throwing button cell batteries in the regular garbage, they should be recycled. ..." (there is an outside link to recycling info). There is also a link to a battery industry PDF that shows the amount of mercury used in batteries has decreased a lot over then past 15-20 years.

The EPA goes on to say that mercuric oxide batteries (probably larger than button cells) can still be made for certain military and medical uses but that the manufacturer and device users are legally required to have a system for tracking, collecting, and recycling the batteries. I don't know to what extent this still goes on since the ban started in ~ 1996 so much of this equipment is likely out of service by now.

dynachrome · Aug 3, 2021

Last Sunday I was at a wedding, I was not the official photographer. The camera I brought was a Canon New F-1 with the AE Finder. The lens was a 35/2 New FD and the film was Portra 400. Now for the alkalines - the flash was a Sunpak 411. I had used it a few months earlier on a Nikkormat FT3 and it worked perfectly. This time when I turned it on, nothing happened, I'm pretty sure I tried it before I left for the wedding. I usually carry a pocket knife but forgot it when I put on my suit pants. I pulled down on the tab but the battery case would not come out. A friend lent me his pocket knife. I pulled down the tab as far as I could and used the knife blade to pry the battery holder away from the flash. There was quite a bit of leakage/corrosion. I used the knife blade to scrape off what I could and put in a new set of Kirkland AAs. The old bad batteries were also Kirklands. They were in date but I don't know if this is a battery problem or the fact that the cabinet I keep batteries in, in the den, sometimes gets a little cold in the winter. If I used flash more often I would put in NiMh rechargeables.

wiltw · Aug 3, 2021

dynachrome said:
A friend lent me his pocket knife. I pulled down the tab as far as I could and used the knife blade to pry the battery holder away from the flash. There was quite a bit of leakage/corrosion. I used the knife blade to scrape off what I could and put in a new set of Kirkland AAs. .

Find yourself some Barkeeper's Friend cleanser at grocery or Ace Hardware. Make a paste with it, and apply to all corrosion and let sit for a minute or two, then clean off with wet cloth or wet Q-tips and blow dry with a hair dryer. I have revived a number of items in which alkaline batteries had leaked and caused corrosion.

Huss · Aug 3, 2021

dynachrome said:
Last Sunday I was at a wedding, I was not the official photographer. The camera I brought was a Canon New F-1 with the AE Finder. The lens was a 35/2 New FD and the film was Portra 400. Now for the alkalines - the flash was a Sunpak 411. I had used it a few months earlier on a Nikkormat FT3 and it worked perfectly. This time when I turned it on, nothing happened, I'm pretty sure I tried it before I left for the wedding. I usually carry a pocket knife but forgot it when I put on my suit pants. I pulled down on the tab but the battery case would not come out. A friend lent me his pocket knife. I pulled down the tab as far as I could and used the knife blade to pry the battery holder away from the flash. There was quite a bit of leakage/corrosion. I used the knife blade to scrape off what I could and put in a new set of Kirkland AAs. The old bad batteries were also Kirklands. They were in date but I don't know if this is a battery problem or the fact that the cabinet I keep batteries in, in the den, sometimes gets a little cold in the winter. If I used flash more often I would put in NiMh rechargeables.

I've had an entire big multipack of Kirkland AA batteries leak inside the box, a few months after purchase. Kept in an office drawer. Returned them for a refund.

dynachrome · Aug 4, 2021

A friend who repairs cameras recommended that I use Energizer Industrial batteries. I bought some in AAA size for some Konica FT-1 cameras. He says that some AA batteries, like the Kirkland ones, can start out at mire than 1.5 volts and that this can also cause problems with certain devices. The Kirkland AAs are tempting because of their low price but I think I'll order some of the Energizer Industrial AAs and try those.

bunktheory65 · Aug 4, 2021

but is there a high quality silver oxide version for the 625 batteries or the ones for the mamiya 1000s?

MattKing · Aug 4, 2021

bunktheory65 said:
but is there a high quality silver oxide version for the 625 batteries or the ones for the mamiya 1000s?

Unlikely, because everything designed for a 625 battery would have been designed for 1.35 volts, not the ~1.5 volts supplied by silver oxide batteries.

wiltw · Aug 4, 2021

dynachrome said:
A friend who repairs cameras recommended that I use Energizer Industrial batteries. I bought some in AAA size for some Konica FT-1 cameras. He says that some AA batteries, like the Kirkland ones, can start out at mire than 1.5 volts and that this can also cause problems with certain devices. The Kirkland AAs are tempting because of their low price but I think I'll order some of the Energizer Industrial AAs and try those.

The Voltage of any cell is dictated by the chemistry inside the battery...a magnesium oxide and zinc electrode. Energizer says, "precise combination of zinc, high-density manganese dioxide, and potassium hydroxide." So it is a puzzle how any 'alkaline' battery can output any different starting Voltage...that is driven by the elecronegativity of the component chemistry inside.

wiltw · Aug 4, 2021

MattKing said:
Unlikely, because everything designed for a 625 battery would have been designed for 1.35 volts, not the ~1.5 volts supplied by silver oxide batteries.

There area convertors which take a smaller size silver oxide cell, and surround it so it fits the PX-625 form factor compartment, and they drop the 1.55V silber oxide Voltage down to 1.35V needed by cameras designed oritinally to rely upon mercuric oxide cells.

Alkaline batteries suck.

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