AGO Film Processor- Paterson tank compatible processor for home users

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Vintage Visual

Vintage Visual

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I don't get it. I develop 35mm and 120 in a Paterson and it's frankly the simplest and most fool-proof thing I do in the darkroom. Is this a solution looking for a problem?
My intentions were bit different, but market will tell😀. Generally there are two major ideas behind it. 1. That there aren't many alternatives to expensive Processors like JOBO, Filmomat, etc. which take off bit of film developing labor if you develop film more then few rolls per month. 2. Second idea is that most of the Minilabs used in lab are soon to be depreciated, so there is a question where and how we can develop C-41, E-6 in future. This came out of also in my research, that most haven't done C-41 at home because it seems too complex. So this time compensation is mostly for color film, which makes the process much easier, for few rolls you even don´t need a sous vide, only throw you chemicals to sink and use warm tap water to heat up them, just look that temperature is in right range.
For some people (especially those who shoot a lot of film) this might be a good compromise between hand inversion and shelling out for a Jobo (or equivalent) or inventing/building your own roller processor. For people like me, who shoot and process a few rolls a month, it's of less utility. I still see the likelihood of leak problems with that half-seal where the tank connects to the base, though perhaps I'm seeing trouble that hasn't appeared (yet). Given I have enough reels to, if needed, process 32 rolls of 120 in a single session if I have the stamina (loading all on dry reels -- and I'd have to come up with a better solution for hanging rolls to dry), but almost never actually process more than one tank in a day, this isn't really aimed at me.

Regarding leaking problem, this was a problem at first and still can be a problem if processor isn't pressed properly on tank. But I came up with these outer supports which presses tank sealing surface firmly to processor O-ring seal.
1686046582341.png
 

Steven Lee

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I wonder why the Paterson tank was chosen... seems like it only caused design headaches, as JOBO tanks are natively designed not to leak when placed on a side, and have the chemical capacity for rotation agitation conveniently printed on them.
 

brbo

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I wonder why the Paterson tank was chosen... seems like it only caused design headaches, as JOBO tanks are natively designed not to leak when placed on a side, and have the chemical capacity for rotation agitation conveniently printed on them.

How would the constant monitoring of developer temperature and rotation already at pouring in work with Jobo tanks? To get that two features that separate this processor from other semi-automatic processors you'd need to heavily modify the Jobo tank and at that point the sealing in horizontal position of Jobo tank is pretty much irrelevant as well as amount of chemicals printed on them...
 

MattKing

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I wonder why the Paterson tank was chosen... seems like it only caused design headaches, as JOBO tanks are natively designed not to leak when placed on a side, and have the chemical capacity for rotation agitation conveniently printed on them.

My Paterson Super System 4 tanks don't leak when I use them on their side, on a rotating agitator.
If I'm careful when putting the lid on - including "burping" it.
Most likely Paterson was chosen because of price, availability, and the fact that many people already have them and the reels that fit in them.
 
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Vintage Visual

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I wonder why the Paterson tank was chosen... seems like it only caused design headaches, as JOBO tanks are natively designed not to leak when placed on a side, and have the chemical capacity for rotation agitation conveniently printed on them.

Yes, with Paterson two things did come together. 1. Technically feasible- it is possible to rotate reels inside, possibility to pour in chemicals in horizontal position(with easily modified funnel) and the same time measure the temperature. 2.Popularity- That it is most used development tank people have already and it comes in quite many sizes.
 

Ivo Stunga

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It's usually not a problem when you just process a couple of rolls in an afternoon. But if you've ever spent a weekend processing a large batch of films using the 5 reel tanks, then your back and shoulders will let you know why things like that are useful. 😉
Or if the processing of one batch requires an hour of your time like with BW Reversal. Two, including setup
 
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Xylo

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I wonder why the Paterson tank was chosen... seems like it only caused design headaches, as JOBO tanks are natively designed not to leak when placed on a side
I'm not entirely sure but I feel that making something that is playing in JOBO's front lawn and using their equipment and designs is simply looking for trouble.
With Paterson, since the tanks were not designed to do that, there is no real patent infringement.
 

pentaxuser

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I watched the videos by Jahan Saber and Vintage Visual but I am left with a few questions:

1. At 375 euros does that include the modified Paterson tank?
2. Is there only one size of tank available?
3. Is it possible to modify your own Paterson tank by drilling the 3 holes yourself
4. Does the power come from batteries in the unit? If so what are they and how long do they last?
5. The power paddle seems to be driven in one direction only, is this correct?
6. If you have the temperature of the developer at 20 degrees to start with but your room is lower than that so the developer temp starts to fall over say 10 mins do I take it that the sensor ensures that it continually compensates to ensure that the end of the development time is exactly right for whatever the developer temperature graph tells the machine to lengthen the time or shorten it to if the development temperature were to rise?

As there is no means of keeping the development temperature constant if the room temperature is less than the developer temperature then presumably you'd need to ensure that over the course of the development time the development temperature will not fall below 20 or is it 18 degrees? So you'd have to ensure by experiment what the start temperature needs to ensure that by the end it hasn't dropped to less than 18-20 degrees?

Finally Vintage VisuaL say this about C41: "C-41 processing is no longer so temperature sensitive — you just need to make sure that chemical temperature is between 30 to 38°C."

Doesn't this re-open the debate about how accurate the temperature has to be for C41 to deliver faultless development?

Yes Tetenal say that it is OK for the temperature to be between quite a wide range (30-38C) but every time this is raised on Photrio there seems to be a strong body of those who maintain that it has to be 38C or 100F otherwise problems will arise?

We are back to the risks of using anything other than 38C plus or more accurately 37.7 plus or minus 0.2C, aren't we?

pentaxuser
 
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Vintage Visual

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I watched the videos by Jahan Saber and Vintage Visual but I am left with a few questions:

1. At 375 euros does that include the modified Paterson tank?
2. Is there only one size of tank available?
3. Is it possible to modify your own Paterson tank by drilling the 3 holes yourself
4. Does the power come from batteries in the unit? If so what are they and how long do they last?
5. The power paddle seems to be driven in one direction only, is this correct?
6. If you have the temperature of the developer at 20 degrees to start with but your room is lower than that so the developer temp starts to fall over say 10 mins do I take it that the sensor ensures that it continually compensates to ensure that the end of the development time is exactly right for whatever the developer temperature graph tells the machine to lengthen the time or shorten it to if the development temperature were to rise?

As there is no means of keeping the development temperature constant if the room temperature is less than the developer temperature then presumably you'd need to ensure that over the course of the development time the development temperature will not fall below 20 or is it 18 degrees? So you'd have to ensure by experiment what the start temperature needs to ensure that by the end it hasn't dropped to less than 18-20 degrees?

Finally Vintage VisuaL say this about C41: "C-41 processing is no longer so temperature sensitive — you just need to make sure that chemical temperature is between 30 to 38°C."

Doesn't this re-open the debate about how accurate the temperature has to be for C41 to deliver faultless development?

Yes Tetenal say that it is OK for the temperature to be between quite a wide range (30-38C) but every time this is raised on Photrio there seems to be a strong body of those who maintain that it has to be 38C or 100F otherwise problems will arise?

We are back to the risks of using anything other than 38C plus or more accurately 37.7 plus or minus 0.2C, aren't we?

pentaxuser

Thanks for your questions.
1. No it doesn't. Actually you need only to modify Paterson funnel (drill three holes). Package includes sticker template to drill you funnel at home.
2. You can use any Paterson tank with AGO
3. Yes you can modify your own funnel, this doesn't compromise light tightness of you rig. so you can still use it without AGO if needed.
4. Yes it has two batteries inside. Batteries last minimum of 4 hours.
5. Shaft rotates in both directions. You can modify it yourself in settings. Default setting is 14 seconds one way and 15 seconds other way.
5. Yes correct, algorithm is built in a way that it first measures the temperature @ 20 seconds to get first estimation of roughly how long the process will be and from there at 1/3 point of the process the second measurement and time correction is done to get overall process time. This is done like that because at higher temperatures chemistry does its work exponentially more.

Yes with b&w it is suggested to keep temperature between 18-24 degrees throughout the process. It compensates further also but chemical manufacturers don't suggest that. Depending on the length of the process normally it doesn't change that much.
With c-41 the range for Tetenal and Rollei is 30 to 38 degrees.

Faultless development- For some maybe yes, I have seen comparisons with 38 and 20 degrees development, some colors definitely bit change with that big of temperature fluctuation but we don't suggest to go that far as 20 degrees. This is accordance of the chemical manufacturer and as far I have processed film with it I cant tell a difference.

Do you have some references for the risks?
 

pentaxuser

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Thanks for your questions.
1. No it doesn't. Actually you need only to modify Paterson funnel (drill three holes). Package includes sticker template to drill you funnel at home.
2. You can use any Paterson tank with AGO
3. Yes you can modify your own funnel, this doesn't compromise light tightness of you rig. so you can still use it without AGO if needed.
4. Yes it has two batteries inside. Batteries last minimum of 4 hours.
5. Shaft rotates in both directions. You can modify it yourself in settings. Default setting is 14 seconds one way and 15 seconds other way.
5. Yes correct, algorithm is built in a way that it first measures the temperature @ 20 seconds to get first estimation of roughly how long the process will be and from there at 1/3 point of the process the second measurement and time correction is done to get overall process time. This is done like that because at higher temperatures chemistry does its work exponentially more.

Yes with b&w it is suggested to keep temperature between 18-24 degrees throughout the process. It compensates further also but chemical manufacturers don't suggest that. Depending on the length of the process normally it doesn't change that much.
With c-41 the range for Tetenal and Rollei is 30 to 38 degrees.

Faultless development- For some maybe yes, I have seen comparisons with 38 and 20 degrees development, some colors definitely bit change with that big of temperature fluctuation but we don't suggest to go that far as 20 degrees. This is accordance of the chemical manufacturer and as far I have processed film with it I cant tell a difference.

Do you have some references for the risks?

Thanks for the comprehensive reply which covers all my questions. The only reference for risks that I have is the collective threads on this site where there are those who claim to have used the range of temperatures quoted by Tetenal and have been happy with the results and those who state that there is a risk to the success of the developer at any other temperature than 37.7 C/ 100F with plus or minus 0.2 degrees C. They may or may not have tried other temperatures and are simply stating what Kodak says. I just don't know

What is clear from what you say is that as far as b&w developing is concerned the temperature sensor takes care of matters and as long as the final temperature is not below about 18 degrees the development should be fine

pentaxuser
 

pentaxuser

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As a follow-up I had a look at how a Paterson tank fits together as I don't own one and I am having difficulty working out how the three holes on the top of the top part of the funnel which then sit on the bottom edge when the tank is secured to the AGO can allow liquid onto the film without allowing light to get to the film It looks as if the holes lead to the area where the film on the reel is

What is it that forms a lightproof barrier between the holes and the film?

Can anybody with a Paterson tank give me an explanation or better still demonstrate with the parts involved ?

Thanks

pentaxuser
 

Donald Qualls

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The Paterson Super System IV funnel has openings all around the rim for pouring out solutions -- if the holes open into that outlet's light trap, they won't compromise the light safety of the tank.
 

pentaxuser

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Thanks Donald As I have only ever used Jobo and Durst tanks I am having difficulties in envisaging how this works I'll need to Google a Super System IV tank broken down into its parts to see how this is done

pentaxuser
 
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Vintage Visual

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Hi! Bit news about the progress. After beta campaign, starting from May to September we got a lot of positive feedback from our customers. People really are amazed how the time compensation feature is simplifying the development process. Some even started to forget to measure their developer temperature before pouring in, end then discovered that it is out of range but it still produced good negatives. Still we suggest to keep the temperature at least in suggested temperature range, even though algorithm gives his best to produce good result.
During that time we have also included Cinestill C-41 and Bellini C-41 to AGO. Next will be Cinestill E-6 (D6-deilight chrome)
From the insights and improvements we made during the beta campaign it has given us the confidence that it is time for crowdfunding.

Pre-launch page on Indiegogo (3.10.2023):
Indiegogo page

Article on Studio C-41
studioc41.net

Pleas share and subscribe

Cheers,
Arno
 
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Vintage Visual

Vintage Visual

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Hi!

Here’s some news about the progress. Things have changed quite a lot from the last update. We made it! AGO was successful during the Indiegogo campaign. We collected over 80 000€ (267% of the initial amount) during the campaign. Can’t be happier, it helps a lot, not only to produce the AGOs but also to lay a foundation for a company behind the product. I promised our backers we would deliver the first AGOs by May 2024, but it looks like we can do it even earlier!

I have good news, ECN-2 is possible with AGO’s time compensation. I have conducted tests with Cinestill ECN-2 chemicals and managed to come up with an algorithm to replicate the behavior of it at different temperatures. It behaves almost like Cinestill C-41 chemicals but at two degrees higher temperature. During the testing I aimed to get equally dense negatives at different temperatures, this was achievable. But as with most color film processes, you get a color shift when developing at different temperatures. You can read more on this on my blog here: https://vintagevisual.eu/getting-ready-for-production-testing-ecn-2/

The team has grown as Joonas joined during the campaign. He has a marketing and sales background , a person who I have looked for quite a long time already. At a moment it is mostly the two of us who are behind vintage Visual. As this team of two we have managed to find distributors and resellers interested in our product and willing to give it a shot with us this year. We are looking to start initially selling on UK, EU and US markets.

Here’s also a great article by Dave Walker who has been using his Beta AGO and shared his opinion. https://www.35mmc.com/03/10/2023/ago-film-processor-by-vintage-visual-product-review/

Cheers
Arno
 

radialMelt

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I quite like this product. If only you were able to derive compensation curves for Flexicolor chemistry, I'd certainly purchase one. Best of luck!
 
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