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Bayard

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So, I've read ten articles on developing film, and viewed five or six YouTube videos, as well as read the Ilford instructions and Horenstein.

I have, literally, not found any two sources that agree, completely, on how agitation should be done. Talking about 35mm rolls.

Has anyone ever tested different agitation methods out? Has anyone used the little extension, in a Paterson tank, to twist-agitate their film? If so, can you share results?

Thanks,
Bayard
 

MattKing

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Most of the slightly different approaches achieve the desired result - they replace partially exhausted chemicals adjacent to the surface of the emulsion with fresher chemicals.
The two challenges are:
1) is that replacement done in a way that ensures uniformity; and
2) is the replacement done sufficiently frequently to ensure a lot of development, but not so frequently and vigorously as to cause over-development?
Once you arrive at a method that accomplishes the first two, it is important to ensure that you use that method consistently.
Most likely, any of the methods you read about will work fine, as long as you are both consistent and you use the method in a reasonable way.
Consistency is usually the biggest challenge.
 

trendland

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Most of the slightly different approaches achieve the desired result - they replace partially exhausted chemicals adjacent to the surface of the emulsion with fresher chemicals.
The two challenges are:
1) is that replacement done in a way that ensures uniformity; and
2) is the replacement done sufficiently frequently to ensure a lot of development, but not so frequently and vigorously as to cause over-development?
Once you arrive at a method that accomplishes the first two, it is important to ensure that you use that method consistently.
Most likely, any of the methods you read about will work fine, as long as you are both consistent and you use the method in a reasonable way.
Consistency is usually the biggest challenge.

Matt :happy:....I 've just remembered my very
first roll with "agitation" - never could imagine how it should work at this time.
Do you know "bar mixers" " coctail chacers" that was it to the first 6min.
A lot of work - puhhhj ...:cry:.
Hopefully someone would not do it constantely (over years).:D.


with greetings
 

Chris Livsey

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I have, literally, not found any two sources that agree, completely, on how agitation should be done. Talking about 35mm rolls.

Has anyone ever tested different agitation methods out? Has anyone used the little extension, in a Paterson tank, to twist-agitate their film? If so, can you share results?

Thanks,
Bayard

As mentioned above it is the destination that is important: even development, not the way you get there: which agitation technique.
The important thing is to maintain the technique, when you find what works comfortably for you and gives you good results.

On your second point I am sure there are some who twist agitate but I would strongly recommend against it due to laminar flow being induced which is a bad thing. I call
John Blakemore’s Black and White Photography Workshop pg 69 if you want a reference: it "should be avoided"as independent evidence.
Anchell & Troop in the Film Developing Cookbook helpfully suggest agitation is "intelligent" they mean you should be thinking of why you are doing this and what is to be achieved in deciding on a technique to standardise on and avoid setting up standing waves in the developer or, as I mentioned, laminar flow. They mention later in the volume a technique in Pyro developing where the tank is suddenly inverted, this causes the trapped air to flow up the tank mimicking a nitrogen burst in a deep tank which is a chaotic type of flow exactly as is required. If a technique achieves the objectives it will give results as good as any other technique that meets the same standard, as I started with: it doesn't matter how you get there.

Hope that helps.
 
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Bayard

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Okay, I should have specified what I am thinking about. My bad.

Let's say, for example, I have agitation method 1 and method 2. They are wildly different, in some way (timing, soft versus hard inversions, what have you).

What I am envisioning is taking two rolls out, setting the camera up on a tripod, and shooting two or three different scenes, by rotating the camera, but keeping the tripod in the same place. I take five to thirteen shots of the scene, Over and under-exposing by two stops, either in full, half, or third stop increments. Then I switch to the other scene, and repeat until I fill up the roll, maybe with a lens cover frame between the sets, maybe not.

Then I load the second roll and repeat the exposures on the same framing, same shots.

When I get back to the darkroom, I develop each roll separately, changing nothing but the agitation method between the two.

Then I pick one of the frames from roll one and get it to a split filter test print. Using the same frame from the second roll, I use the times for the first test print, then compare the results of the two prints, to see if there is any difference in the highlights or midtones. I don't suspect there would be much of an appreciable difference in the shadows, unless Method 1 was, for some reason, not to agitate at all.

Has anyone ever done this, either for agitation, or change in developer, or some other single change in process?

Bayard
 

RalphLambrecht

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So, I've read ten articles on developing film, and viewed five or six YouTube videos, as well as read the Ilford instructions and Horenstein.

I have, literally, not found any two sources that agree, completely, on how agitation should be done. Talking about 35mm rolls.

Has anyone ever tested different agitation methods out? Has anyone used the little extension, in a Paterson tank, to twist-agitate their film? If so, can you share results?

Thanks,
Bayard
in my experience, there is nothing better for even film development than a Jobo rotation developer but rolling a developing canister at the edge of a table works similar well
 

Bill Burk

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That's an awful lot of work to look for what might be a subtle difference. Agitation differences might cause real negative defects (bromide drag, surge marks or uneven skies) or differences in sharpness (stand developing with intent to create conditions favorable to development edge effects).

I would focus on making a clear decision which "kind" of agitation to use, and stick to it. Then decide if it's causing real problems. If it does work well, stay consistent. But don't be freakish about the details.

I check my film for the extent of development, and what I measure (contrast) does not change significantly with minor variations in my agitation scheme. In tray development, I find it hard to be consistent with agitation. The hard part for me is to time the agitation sequence to "run through" the stack in one minute. I sometimes can be patient and wait the 10 seconds, and other times, I just shuffle sheet to sheet with barely a pause. Yet I measure no significant deviation from expected to actual contrast. With small tank development it is easier to be consistent. I agitate according to the Kodak instructions.
 

MattKing

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Okay, I should have specified what I am thinking about. My bad.

Let's say, for example, I have agitation method 1 and method 2. They are wildly different, in some way (timing, soft versus hard inversions, what have you).

What I am envisioning is taking two rolls out, setting the camera up on a tripod, and shooting two or three different scenes, by rotating the camera, but keeping the tripod in the same place. I take five to thirteen shots of the scene, Over and under-exposing by two stops, either in full, half, or third stop increments. Then I switch to the other scene, and repeat until I fill up the roll, maybe with a lens cover frame between the sets, maybe not.

Then I load the second roll and repeat the exposures on the same framing, same shots.

When I get back to the darkroom, I develop each roll separately, changing nothing but the agitation method between the two.

Then I pick one of the frames from roll one and get it to a split filter test print. Using the same frame from the second roll, I use the times for the first test print, then compare the results of the two prints, to see if there is any difference in the highlights or midtones. I don't suspect there would be much of an appreciable difference in the shadows, unless Method 1 was, for some reason, not to agitate at all.

Has anyone ever done this, either for agitation, or change in developer, or some other single change in process?

Bayard

This is an interesting thought process, but I don't know whether I would undertake the work!
I can see doing something like this with an automated processor that allows you to adjust variables like rotation speed, but otherwise I'm not sure that it is possible to assure sufficient repeat-ability to reach the conclusions you want to be able to reach.

In addition, I think you would have to do a pile of testing in order to adjust your times so as to match contrast between gently agitated development and vigorously agitated development. Otherwise, the print tests would be misleading.

As I said, the thought process is interesting, and I think valuable as well. It drives home where the variables might be found, and makes it easier to systemize your approach in order to ensure consistency.

FWIW, I have personally standardized on:
1) Initial, single, vigorous inversion with twist, followed by a bubble dislodging "thump";
2) place tank on rotary, auto rotating and reversing agitator, start rotation and timer;
3) after 30 seconds remove tank from rotary agitator and stand tank upright;
4) complete development by starting at the one minute mark and repeating every 30 seconds thereafter by giving the tank 5 seconds of twisting and inverting randomized agitation plus "thump".
Each 5 second agitation includes two full inversion and twisting cycles, with each cycle being sufficiently vigorous as to cause the developer to "tumble" through the film.

For each of the following stop bath, fixer, rinse and HCA steps that follow I do one hand agitation cycle at the beginning and let the the auto rotating agitator do the rest of the work. The fixer stage is broken into two equal steps with two batches of fixer - I set the time by doing a clearing snip test each time.

Mostly, I'm using Paterson tanks, with plastic AP/Arista/Samigon reels. I don't use the rotary agitator for the full development, because the film moves around in the reels too much in the development stage. That problem doesn't seem to occur during the later stages.
 

Bill Burk

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MattKing your idea sounds great! Though I just keep inverting for the first thirty to forty-five seconds...

To clarify my position:

Your pictorial test is relatively difficult to carry out and repeat.

If you are testing the difference between stand, semi-stand and good agitation schemes... Definitely go for the test and check the results. In your set of pictures include some high-contrast fine-detail so you can see the edge effects / softness you get with definite different agitation methods.

If you are testing the difference between good agitation schemes and the differences are fairly minor (such as comparing 5 inversions each 30 seconds to 3 inversions every minute)... These tests will not be apparent in your pictures and any differences you find could be normal experimental error (like the more vigorous agitation might "seem" to equate to one more minute of processing at the same time, but you could easily have temperature variances that account for similar difference in results...). Only base the decision of one scheme over the other based on which plan gives you fewer negative defects over the long haul.

So if you are testing wildly different plans, go for it... you should find significant differences.

If you are testing only slightly different plans, don't bother... to find the real difference will take statistical analysis of several well-controlled experiments.
 

Bill Burk

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Of course if you do a test and want to write about it here, I will enjoy reading about what you did and what you saw. The discussions will be enjoyable, no matter what you do...
 

tokam

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Aaaaaagh!! /Linus from Peanuts, or was it Charlie Brown?. Kodak and Ilford aren't mugs when it comes to developing roll films in small tanks. Just RTFM, (or datasheets in this case).

I think a lot of inconsistencies arise out of people losing concentration when developing small tanks by hand and missing out on agitation cycles. Just pay attention to your timer and giver two or three or whatever gentle inversions at the correct interval. Have all of your solutions ready to go when you start the development cycle and you won't be fumbling around measuring stop batch and fixer while you are supposed to be watching the clock while developing. Has never let me down in over 40 years in Patterson tanks. Don't over fill your tanks.

On another note, a lot of people use HC-110 as their to go developer. Kodak in their datasheet stress that the developer must be fully dissolved in water before use and that this may take a minute or more of mixing. It's not good enough to squirt your neat HC-110 into your measuring flask, give it a couple of twirls, and then proceed to use the developer. This practice invites the risk of local over development as the raw HC-110 sits up against your film. Make sure that there is no viscous HC-110 sitting at the bottom of your mixing vessel. If you don't use a clear measuring cylinder or jug as we call them, then get one so you can see what is going on when you mix your solutions.

I'm never going to say another word on agitation. :smile:
 

bvy

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Part of the problem with agitation is once you recognize uneven development, you're always looking for it. And if you look hard enough for something, you'll find it. It's like an addiction. I blissfully processed all kinds of film and would have also proclaimed "I've done A and B for years and never had a problem," which is why I'm not convinced by those claims. What may not be a problem for you, might be for me. And what may not be a problem today, might be tomorrow. For example, one day I discovered uneven development in some of my skies. Looking back, I found more subtle instances of the problem all along.

Like the OP, I started down the road of testing different agitation techniques and recording the results. I would actually recommend this; it's not only educational and insightful, but will give you more confidence over your process, once you find something that works for you.

I posted a video yesterday illustrating (there was a url link here which no longer exists). I now employ constant rotary inversion agitation using a motor base. With this technique, my problems with airbells and uneven development have disappeared -- that is, until I find something new to look for.
 
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tokam

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Hi bvy, I admire your resourcefulness and that bed of wired conduit is a simple and elegant way to 'wedge' the tank into the developing tube. I last used tubes on a motorised base over 30 years ago for colour printing. Alas, in many house moves over the years that equipment went astray somewhere and I'm not planning to revisit colour printing any time soon.

The rotation speed on your roller base looks to be about the same, or a bit slower, than my manual inversions. No need for centrifuge speeds here.:wink:

Cheers, Martin

PS How does your solution scale up to 5 reel tanks? :tongue: :D (just kidding, honestly!)
 

Saganich

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Part of the problem with agitation is once you recognize uneven development, you're always looking for it. And if you look hard enough for something, you'll find it. It's like an addiction. I blissfully processed all kinds of film and would have also proclaimed "I've done A and B for years and never had a problem," which is why I'm not convinced by those claims. What may not be a problem for you, might be for me. And what may not be a problem today, might be tomorrow. For example, one day I discovered uneven development in some of my skies. Looking back, I found more subtle instances of the problem all along.

Like the OP, I started down the road of testing different agitation techniques and recording the results. I would actually recommend this; it's not only educational and insightful, but will give you more confidence over your process, once you find something that works for you.

I posted a video yesterday illustrating (there was a url link here which no longer exists). I now employ constant rotary inversion agitation using a motor base. With this technique, my problems with airbells and uneven development have disappeared -- that is, until I find something new to look for.

Damn, I have one of those! Never thought to put the SS tank inside.
 

bvy

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PS How does your solution scale up to 5 reel tanks?
"You're going to need a bigger boat."

Actually, I still fantasize about putting the tank on its side and using one of those sine wave motor bases. If that works, you could use a taller tank. Maybe someday I'll try it. Or maybe I just need better fantasies.
 

darkroommike

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Agitation, a certain minimum amount is essential for evenness of development, anything more will increase density with little other effect. There is no one perfect or even preferred schema, the Ilford method, the Kodak method, the "Me" method, the "You" method, will all work. It is more important to be consistent and find a way to agitate that you like and that works for your equipment and then stick with it.
 

filmamigo

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I agree with Ralph W. Lambrecht.

For years I followed what I learned in my highschool yearbook darkroom ... tap the tank on the sink, give the Patterson twirl stick a twist, and then once a minute slide the tank around and then flip it over and back. This was basically successful, though sometimes uneven. (I used to use D76 or Ilfosol, and now am 100% Diafine.)

But last year I had loaded a large tank full of reels, and realized I wasn't going to have enough Diafine to cover all the reels. Rather than abandon the job, I decide to try "rotary" processing to stretch the chems. I burped the tank lid to ensure it was watertight, put the tank on it's side and gently rolled it back and forth on the counter. It worked perfectly, and development was perfectly even. I was concerned because Diafine has a reputation for being very grainy with continuous agitation. I didn't find it any worse than normal (heck, Diafine IS grainy... great on 35mm if you want grain, otherwise I just move up to a larger format and the grain is tamed.)

I liked the results enough that I have switch to "hand rotary" processing completely. I even built a little stand with four wheels on it, so I can lay the tank down on the wheels and roll it back and forth without needing the counter space.
 
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