Agfa photo-paper blast from the past!

[250swb]

Given that it was a Kodak Ltd paper (i.e. made in Harrow for the UK market), I'm a bit perplexed by your statement that it wasn't as easily available in the UK as Agfa papers. It may have been that the Kodak material was more readily available through the professional supply channels rather than high street shops.

I have got some in to-be-lithed pile, along with a chunk of Record Rapid. The other main Kodak Ltd papers were Bromide (not Kodabromide) and Royal Bromesko. Royal Bromesko looks like it was being aimed at Portriga.

Bromesko was phased out in the early 80s but Record Rapid lasted nearly until the 2000s so at some point Bromesko was harder to find as stocks dwindled. I think I must have tried it about the same time it was being phased out.

 

[Ian Grant]

The Cd misnomer is a convenient excuse but it probably had a lot more to do with a more complex sequence of changes. The change to washed emulsions (so that they could be coated on RC) and the removal of Cd happened in the 1970s, along with some emulsion structural changes (and the loss of some emulsions that could not be conveniently re-engineered with the technology of the time) - the real cause of death of some warmtone emulsions seems to have been their use of lead salts in the initial precipitation step (to produce a favourable crystal habit) and sales levels that were too low (by late 1990s standards) to accommodate the re-engineering of the emulsion using modern emulsion crystal growth technology. Changes in anti-oxidants and other components to enhance the batch-to-batch consistency also seem to have had effects on processes that require the creative misuse of particular papers.

Agfa removed Cadmium from their warm tone papers in the late 1980s. I began using Record Rapid around 1987 and was disappointed when they reformulated with no Cadmium, it no longer had the same range of image tones/colour, extremes of warmth, but it was still an excellent paper. It was discontinued and replaced by Agfa MCC in about early 1994.

After that the only major paper still incorporating Cadmium (here in the UK) was Kodak Ektalure, but this was old stock made long before the ban.

In the late 1970s, and particularly the 1980s, there were concerns of toxic metals building up in the Great Lakes and particularly Lake Ontario, due to discharges by Eastman Kodak, This included Cadmium, and led to the EEC/EU bringing in its own regulations.

Ian

 

[Carnie Bob]

Agfa removed Cadmium from their warm tone papers in the late 1980s. I began using Record Rapid around 1987 and was disappointed when they reformulated with no Cadmium, it no longer had the same range of image tones/colour, extremes of warmth, but it was still an excellent paper. It was discontinued and replaced by Agfa MCC in about early 1994.

After that the only major paper still incorporating Cadmium (here in the UK) was Kodak Ektalure, but this was old stock made long before the ban.

In the late 1970s, and particularly the 1980s, there were concerns of toxic metals building up in the Great Lakes and particularly Lake Ontario, due to discharges by Eastman Kodak, This included Cadmium, and led to the EEC/EU bringing in its own regulations.

Ian

Rotten Canadians, spoiled it all for us diehard printers.

 

[Sharktooth]

In the late 70's I settled with Portriga Rapid developed in Kodak Selectol as my favorites for B&W printing, but I focused almost exclusively on color by the mid 80's. When Portriga Rapid disappeared I was definitely sad to see it go, but hadn't been using it for many years.

This thread brings back those fond memories, but it also raises a couple of questions. There's been a lot of mention about "Portriga" as well as "Portriga Rapid". Are those the same thing, or are these different variants. I only remember Portriga Rapid, so maybe plain Portriga was an older slower version. Please enlighten me. The second question is about cadmium. You can still buy NiCd batteries at dollar stores, so Cd can't be banned for all uses. There must be more to it for it's reason to be dropped from photo paper.

 

[DREW WILEY]

That's the absurdity of it. Cadmium is nasty stuff. It's banned in tiny amounts in all kinds of usages - and thankfully now long banned in yellow house and school bus paints. But it's massively used in the battery industry, and even worse, inevitably abused due to that in third world recycling operations.

 

[Ian Grant]

Rotten Canadians, spoiled it all for us diehard printers.

I seem to remember a short UK ban on North Atlantic tinned Tuna due to Cadmium in the 11980s, while Cadmium levels in Tuna was properly assessed.
Record Rapid without Cadmium did not keep well.

In the late 70's I settled with Portriga Rapid developed in Kodak Selectol as my favorites for B&W printing, but I focused almost exclusively on color by the mid 80's. When Portriga Rapid disappeared I was definitely sad to see it go, but hadn't been using it for many years.

Agfa used slightly different names in North America and Europe.

Here in the UK/Europe, Portriga Speed was the RC version of Record Rapid (Gloss FB), and Portriga was a Pearl/Satin not quite Matte FB paper. It was nor uncommon for products exported to North American to have slightly different names. It was about preventing Grey imports.

In the late 1970s I experimented with a Cadmium Toner, this gave White tones, you would ask why . . . . What about an emulsion on a black surface. at the time I had a business applying emulsion to painted surfaces, usually cars, vans, etc, for advertising. This was before Vinyl transfers.

Ian

 

[Sharktooth]

I seem to remember a short UK ban on North Atlantic tinned Tuna due to Cadmium in the 11980s, while Cadmium levels in Tuna was properly assessed.
Record Rapid without Cadmium did not keep well.



Agfa used slightly different names in North America and Europe.

Here in the UK/Europe, Portriga Speed was the RC version of Record Rapid (Gloss FB), and Portriga was a Pearl/Satin not quite Matte FB paper. It was nor uncommon for products exported to North American to have slightly different names. It was about preventing Grey imports.

In the late 1970s I experimented with a Cadmium Toner, this gave White tones, you would ask why . . . . What about an emulsion on a black surface. at the time I had a business applying emulsion to painted surfaces, usually cars, vans, etc, for advertising. This was before Vinyl transfers.

Ian

Thanks for the feedback about Portriga. I'm in Canada, so I'm assuming we had similar products to the U.S., but that may not have been true. It makes sense that Europe would have different names and packaging, due to the different languages. The Portriga Rapid that I used to use was a single grade fiber based paper. No RC coating, and no variable contrast by filtering.

I come from the automobile industry, and cadmium used to be used in plating processes since it provided excellent corrosion protection. It's possible that the tuna cans may have had Cd plating which would protect the can from corrosion, but would contaminate the tuna. Cadmium was banned from the auto industry long ago, but Drew's right in saying it's absurd to keep using it in batteries.

 

[MattKing]

hanks for the feedback about Portriga. I'm in Canada, so I'm assuming we had similar products to the U.S., but that may not have been true.

Any differences would be more about labelling and different distribution realities than actual manufacture. The need for bilingual labelling was probably the biggest reason that Canada didn't get a lot of products that were available in the USA, but I would be surprised if any of the European sources would be phased by that.

 

[Lachlan Young]

Bromesko was phased out in the early 80s but Record Rapid lasted nearly until the 2000s

Agfa removed Cadmium from their warm tone papers in the late 1980s. I began using Record Rapid around 1987 and was disappointed when they reformulated with no Cadmium, it no longer had the same range of image tones/colour, extremes of warmth, but it was still an excellent paper. It was discontinued and replaced by Agfa MCC in about early 1994.

After that the only major paper still incorporating Cadmium (here in the UK) was Kodak Ektalure, but this was old stock made long before the ban.

There's been a lot of mention about "Portriga" as well as "Portriga Rapid". Are those the same thing, or are these different variants.

To the best of my knowledge, Record Rapid lasted until the early 2000s, Portriga Rapid was discontinued in the 1990s and nominally replaced by MCC 118 (which in terms of the aesthetic of non-toned end product was rather like stating an apple had become an orange).

Portriga and Record were a different faster-than-Lupex contact speed emulsion that did have Cd in it. They were long gone by the 1970s from what I can tell from available catalogues, but had a history lasting back to before WW2 - the original formula was called 'Portriga' but versions on pure white bases seemed to have been called 'Record' in the post WW2 era. The idea seems to have been to give some continuity with the faster 'Rapid' enlarging papers.

Portriga Rapid and Record Rapid directly evolved from Brovira Braun which doesn't seem to have had Cd in it, but did use a small amount of Pb salts. The main variation was in base colour and the blending of some grades to give somewhat intermediate ones in Portriga Rapid (e.g. PRK). From what Agfa were prepared to give away in the patent record, other than a move to chemical sensitisation and away from active gelatins, until the necessity of introducing washed emulsions in the 1970s for RC, the emulsions were much as disclosed in FIAT/ BIOS (and in some aspects, their competition were still playing catch up even then, especially in terms of maximum contrast - soon after, newer emulsion making methods with tighter control of crystal growth resolved that). From that point there's at least two changes: the advent of washed emulsions for RC, resulting in Portriga Speed and Brovira Speed as additions (and consequent effects on the behaviour of the FB emulsions); and a further change as noted by Ian in the 1980s (which I suspect may have been a move to a different coating plant and a reformulation to newer making techniques with tighter crystal growth control rather than Cd being eliminated - and probably changes in hardener, preservatives etc to reflect then current legislation, which did not seemingly affect the scale of use of Pb in the emulsion at that point).

Alongside that, we can run what we know of Kodak's habits in the use of Cd - they were seemingly busy eliminating it from the early 1970s, and it is reasonable to surmise that while some papers (Kodabromide) that used it (you can see a 'typical' bromide enlarging paper formula in the SPSE handbook) were reformulated (not to the satisfaction of many end users), others that were perceived as not having sufficient market size/ worth were allowed to EOL somewhere around the early 1980s (Medalist, and I suspect, Kodak Ltd's Bromide, Bromesko and Royal Bromesko). The killer for Ektalure (and Record Rapid) may well have been RoHS legislation targeting Pb, and a shrinking market for the papers from the digital shift meant that the corporate decision was made to allow them to EOL at the turn of the century, rather than reformulate. Cd's big strength seems to have been in terms of desirable curve shape alteration, with rather milder effects on warmth of image tone.

 

[Sharktooth]

To the best of my knowledge, Record Rapid lasted until the early 2000s, Portriga Rapid was discontinued in the 1990s and nominally replaced by MCC 118 (which in terms of the aesthetic of non-toned end product was rather like stating an apple had become an orange).

Portriga and Record were a different faster-than-Lupex contact speed emulsion that did have Cd in it. They were long gone by the 1970s from what I can tell from available catalogues, but had a history lasting back to before WW2 - the original formula was called 'Portriga' but versions on pure white bases seemed to have been called 'Record' in the post WW2 era. The idea seems to have been to give some continuity with the faster 'Rapid' enlarging papers.

Portriga Rapid and Record Rapid directly evolved from Brovira Braun which doesn't seem to have had Cd in it, but did use a small amount of Pb salts. The main variation was in base colour and the blending of some grades to give somewhat intermediate ones in Portriga Rapid (e.g. PRK). From what Agfa were prepared to give away in the patent record, other than a move to chemical sensitisation and away from active gelatins, until the necessity of introducing washed emulsions in the 1970s for RC, the emulsions were much as disclosed in FIAT/ BIOS (and in some aspects, their competition were still playing catch up even then, especially in terms of maximum contrast - soon after, newer emulsion making methods with tighter control of crystal growth resolved that). From that point there's at least two changes: the advent of washed emulsions for RC, resulting in Portriga Speed and Brovira Speed as additions (and consequent effects on the behaviour of the FB emulsions); and a further change as noted by Ian in the 1980s (which I suspect may have been a move to a different coating plant and a reformulation to newer making techniques with tighter crystal growth control rather than Cd being eliminated - and probably changes in hardener, preservatives etc to reflect then current legislation, which did not seemingly affect the scale of use of Pb in the emulsion at that point).

Alongside that, we can run what we know of Kodak's habits in the use of Cd - they were seemingly busy eliminating it from the early 1970s, and it is reasonable to surmise that while some papers (Kodabromide) that used it (you can see a 'typical' bromide enlarging paper formula in the SPSE handbook) were reformulated (not to the satisfaction of many end users), others that were perceived as not having sufficient market size/ worth were allowed to EOL somewhere around the early 1980s (Medalist, and I suspect, Kodak Ltd's Bromide, Bromesko and Royal Bromesko). The killer for Ektalure (and Record Rapid) may well have been RoHS legislation targeting Pb, and a shrinking market for the papers from the digital shift meant that the corporate decision was made to allow them to EOL at the turn of the century, rather than reformulate. Cd's big strength seems to have been in terms of desirable curve shape alteration, with rather milder effects on warmth of image tone.

Thanks for all that info! Besides Portriga Rapid, I was also aware of Brovira, but Record Rapid didn't seem to be sold where I lived. I don't know if that was a Canada thing, or just in my region of it.

 

[Lachlan Young]

Thanks for all that info! Besides Portriga Rapid, I was also aware of Brovira, but Record Rapid didn't seem to be sold where I lived. I don't know if that was a Canada thing, or just in my region of it.

I believe Agfa Insignia was a brand that the last version of RR was sold under in North America - earlier all versions seem to have been sold as Portriga Rapid in 111 (bright white base tone, glossy) and 118 (warm base tone, fine grain matte), just to confuse everyone - though there is some ambiguity about whether they complied with RR or PR's grades, or possibly had their own localised set of grades for North America before the later revisions standardised things!

 

[DREW WILEY]

Portriga Rapid 118 rings a bell - lovely ivory FB base tone. That's what I used when appropriate. And thanks again, Lachlan, for explaining these things.

 

[dmburke007]

This was my favorite Paper, I still have a few cases of this paper on a 11 x 14 and 6 x 10 format, on Matt. I have lots of formulas for developer and to create this brown look I used Chrloro bromide developer. Eventually will re install my photographic labs to print more photos! This paper is magical!!

 

[GregY]

If you are in the E.U you might be able to find Slavich papers still (or was) made in Russia, their warm tone was close.

Paul, I wouldn't be buying anything from Russia....or from the USA for that matter.
Photography doesn't exist in a vacuum.....

 

[John Wiegerink]

Paul, I wouldn't be buying anything from Russia....or from the USA for that matter.
Photography doesn't exist in a vacuum.....

GregY,
Is there something inferior with products from the USA or Russia????
My wife and I are thinking of looking for property in Nova Scotia or Vancouver area for a Summer home and maybe Ecuador for winter residency. I'll then switch over completely to all Ilford, Adox and Foma products. I think global warming is hitting the USA pretty hard and it's getting hotter here all the time.

 

[GregY]

GregY,
Is there something inferior with products from the USA or Russia????
My wife and I are thinking of looking for property in Nova Scotia or Vancouver area for a Summer home and maybe Ecuador for winter residency. I'll then switch over completely to all Ilford, Adox and Foma products. I think global warming is hitting the USA pretty hard and it's getting hotter here all the time.

JW....things have heated up a lot, even more since New Year.
I haven't bought Kodak for 2 yrs now....& I'm not travelling south either.
Nothing i can't do with FP4+ and the Ilford Delta films.....pretty much down to Ilford since the Canadian Foma distributor hasn't brought more paper into the country and Argentix in Montreal is out,
As the Johnny Cash song that just played on the radio.... "I won't back down..."

 

[John Wiegerink]

JW....things have heated up a lot, even more since New Year.
I haven't bought Kodak for 2 yrs now....& I'm not travelling south either.
Nothing i can't do with FP4+ and the Ilford Delta films.

Yes, it's so warm here my father and mother are rolling over in their graves. Drill baby, drill! It will be a high of 52F here Friday. The only reason I'm using Kodak TMax 100 and TMY2 is that the price is finally down where I can afford it and I did miss not using it. Still, I agree with you 100% in that Ilford films do all I want or need also.

 

[pentaxuser]

As far as the demise of Seagull was concerned, might that not have been down to the fact that, in marketing terms,"the product just wouldn't fly anymore?

pentaxuser

 

[DREW WILEY]

No, the Seagull had been losing its feathers for some time before its final demise. The original Seagull G graded paper was fantastic, but the redux second version under different ownership lacked the same punch, and the Grade 4 version of that was a bland bellyflop. Then came the so-so VC version of it, which matched the original Seagull tonal color decently, but was otherwise a disappointment, at least to me. But that got even worse until quality control complaints doomed the whole lineage.

If the original graded Seagull product could hypothetically be revived again, there would be a whole lot of birds who would flock to it, including me.

I don't worry about migrating. Global warming no longer exists, ever since an executive order was signed formally eliminating it. Too bad heat stressed little Pikas in the high country and outrageous forest fires can't read and obey the order as they should. The oceans apparently can't read either. One major freeway in this area had to be shut down last week due to unmentionable "sea l.... r..." disobeying the order.

 

[GregY]

As far as the demise of Seagull was concerned, might that not have been down to the fact that, in marketing terms,"the product just wouldn't fly anymore?

pentaxuser

I still have 2 boxes of the later Oriental VC FB 16"x20"..... it has survived without fogging and prints very well. I got these in mid covid.... unopened.

 

[John Wiegerink]

As far as the demise of Seagull was concerned, might that not have been down to the fact that, in marketing terms,"the product just wouldn't fly anymore?

pentaxuser

Smart-ass! This is that sneaky British humor again. I remember when they started airing Benny Hill here in the U.S.. My father was still alive and I thought he'd Pee his pants every time he watched Benny's program. All in good fun!

 

[John Wiegerink]

I still have 2 boxes of the later Oriental VC FB..... it has survived without fogging and prints very well. I got these in mid covid.... unopened.

I used the last of mine last summer and not a bit of fog and just as nice as the day I bought it.

 

[Melvin J Bramley]

I am looking to find a paper that gives this results -
photo was made on Agfa brovira-or Portiga Rapid [?]
the film was FP4-in ID-11 ____DATE [1972]

I just missed out on 400 sheets of Portriga that had been stored for 20 years or so in a deepfreeze!
The paper was free!
At least I missed out to someone teaching lith printing in the Seattle area.
Still p###ed though.