AGFA Emulsion formulas

[AgX]

In 1943, AFAIK, there was no business in the US conducted with Germany. IG Farben was kaput here

I have to correct myself.: It was not Eastman Kodak, but Kodak AG. But as they most probably were dependant on the mother company I doubt that this settling was a true German affair.

Yes, you are right: That issue of Agfa gaining access to Kodak knowledge is not yet looked at.

 

[Photo Engineer]

IG Farben vs Kodak AG would have been an internal affair in Germany with a German company and a nationalized former US division. Kodak US would have taken no part in it. In the US a similar situation existed between Agfa Ansco (later Ansco then GAF) which was nationalized by the US government. The factory was in Binghamton. All German nationals that wished, were allowed to return home to Germany. Some chose to stay in the US.

Ian;

Yes, you are perhaps right, but what else do we have to go on but these formulas and the fact that they did "match" what was being sold right up to the date of capture. The synthetic chemistry and coating were there at the plant in-use at that time and that is indicative of some truth to the matters reported. The coatings matched the formulas and the stock of chemicals matched the throughput. These data are in one of the reports.

In fact, the FIAT reports also contain data from other companies such as Perutz and these formulas and the coating equipment are similar to that found in the Agfa plant.

So, no doubt that things could be hidden, but a coating machine and loads of emulsion being worked up and coated is kinda hard to hide. The chemical plants were there, and the only think hidden was the purpose of one tank car of chemicals that no one would talk about. We never found out what the use was of its contents.

Also, we never saw the Wolfen plant. That was in the hands of the Soviets.

PE

 

[Ian Grant]

Presumably Agfa also gained knowledge from Gevaert, and Lumiere, plus a few other long lost photo-companies in occupied Europe.

Ian

 

[Photo Engineer]

Yes, probably, but maybe not Lumiere. IDK. The probable loss of Kodak information is what has been sorely ignored, but looks obvious to me looking at the formulas.

The fact that Kodak pretty much dismissed Agfa technology except for the gold+sulfur indicates to me that they had a commanding lead by the end of the war.

PE

 

[AgX]

PE,

to my understanding Kodak AG was not nationalized. But surely one could argue about any indirect connections to Rochester.

But for sure is that `the Americans´ were at Wolfen. The plant was under US-Army fire in April 1945 and then occupied by these troops. And in succession examined by US and British commisions. Soviet troops and comissions only came much later in July, when Soviet troops occupied that part of Germany as regulated in the Jalta Treaty long before.
When the US occupying troops retracted a lot of senior personnel of the filmplant went with them.

I assume those reports gained an importance in retrospective due to statements from without Agfa or Orwo.

The importance of those reports will diminish in the light of a statement by Dr. Wilhelm Schneider (Agfacolor), who stated to be approached by an US interrogation team in Switzerland still in 1946 for questioning on components but was afraid to cooperate due to his fear to be abducted by them.

 

[Photo Engineer]

There are many stories about "events" transpiring over these formulas including a "missing FIAT report" that contains super secret film formulas. None of that ever proved to be true. It manly grew out of the events surrounding those people who refused to be interviewed, and therefore the interviews were supposedly secret and were withheld. That is, as you can show from your information, he was afraid to cooperate and there was no report.

However, on the other matter, holes in the existing FIAT reports refer to the data from Wolfen as being unknown at other Agfa plants. This has made the reports somewhat cryptic and has also fueled the "missing report" theory.

In fact, we don't know what the sensitzing dye for Brovira was. It was made at Wolfen and shipped to the plant where Brovira was made. Those making the Brovira did not know what the dye was.

This same secrecy pertains at Kodak where I know a number, concentration and solvent for a dye, but that is all. So, I would tell the dye lab that I was sensitzing a mole of 0.2 micron emulsion to the red region and they would give me a few candidates with numbers. I would pick one from the spectrum supplied and they would give me a flask full of dissolved dye to add to my emulsion. It worked!

PE

 

[Ray Rogers]

There are many stories about "events" transpiring over these formulas including a "missing FIAT report" that contains super secret film formulas. None of that ever proved to be true. It manly grew out of the events surrounding those people who refused to be interviewed, and therefore the interviews were supposedly secret and were withheld. That is, as you can show from your information, he was afraid to cooperate and there was no report.

PE

Your story sems to say we protected these people; that may be true but
I got the impression they were pressured and or "physically" encouraged...
the reports are vague in this respect.

These companies subsidiaries in the US were nationalized and US subsidiaries over in Europe were nationalized by the Germans in their march across Europe. So, it cannot be said that technology moved one way. The Agfa scientists had all Kodak formulas taken from captured Kodak documents in Europe. People fail to point that out in the face of the FIAT reports, but it is a fact.PE

Which plant(s) do you have in mind?

In fact, in the face of the Kodak inactive gelatin work going back more than 10 years before 1940, it is surprising that Agfa still used active gelatins.PE

Not really.
At the end of the day, little real advantage was seen to be gained, and so it does not suprise me they did not switch over immediately.

Again, probably lack of R&D capability.

That is a pretty low blow. Nobody is de·ny·ing Kodak's strength in research, but to characterize Agfa's ability as lacking capability is out of tune with the world as we know it.

I should point out that Kodak might even seem to lack capability
if you consider that it knew about gold sensitization much earlier than is usually acknowledged, but could not tame the reaction.

That one stop or so in speed had Kodak working 24/7 trying to catch up with Agfa,
much to the stress of Kodak researchers.

The fact that Lupex is almost identical to Azo and that Brovira is almost identical to Kodabromide is not a coincidence.PE

What do you mean by "identical"?
True, They were both positive emulsions, for making photographic paper.

Was Kodabromide was an ammonical emulsion?
Was Kodabromide a washed emulsion ?

I am curious if anyone knows what year Kodabromide first appeared.

In fact, we don't know what the sensitzing dye for Brovira was.

To the best of your knowledge, Kodak never found that piece of information?

I am pretty sure I know where it is... I have uncovered the huge file it where it is probably sleeping, but it is so huge and disorderly that it will take a some time to examine fully. Transportation to the file site costs about 150 USD.

If any one wants me to look, I will send them my pay pal account information!

Humm... that said, if anyone wants to do some research on this or similar files but has other obligations, I could do this work for them by proxy....

 

[Kirk Keyes]

I have uncovered the huge file it where it is probably sleeping, but it is so huge and disorderly that it will take a some time to examine fully. Transportation to the file site costs about 150 USD.

Ray - more details here. WHat do you mean by the last sentence?

 

[Ray Rogers]

Ray - more details here. WHat do you mean by the last sentence?

It's pretty much what it says. The information is not on line. Transportation, also known as travel costs, are incurred each time I want to investigate.

I have to physically go to the data.

The only thing that keeps me from (probably) finding those details (if they exist-and I think it is very likely they do) is money, and prioritization factors.

Once on site, the only costs are minimal (room and board) for as long as it takes.

Ray

 

[Kirk Keyes]

So where is it - perhaps one of use will be nearby to check it out?

 

[Ray Rogers]

So where is it - perhaps one of use will be nearby to check it out?

Ron and others have already listed several.
I DO have a spreadsheet that aims to organize all this information, world wide, into a single referance source... it is still a work in progress.

Ray

 

[Kirk Keyes]

OK - whatever...

 

[Ray Rogers]

Sour Grapes

OK - whatever...

I feel a sense of irritation...

Please understand that I have invested two 5000 mile trips, a month of room and board, several shorter trips (8 hours by car) and a LOT of frustration to track down some of the material... much of which is now, not only very outdated... but also of very limited usefulness, as Ron has repeatedly said. I did it because it was the only way I had at that time to learn. I continue because I am not a very bright cookie AND I am very Obsessive/Compulsive.

If you want me to locate a site that is close to you, I can try. What is the maximum distance you are willing to travel?

At this point my data does not include your state, but that does not mean you are not close to a repository. I have just never had any reason to look there. Finding a place that has these reports is only the first step of many obstacles!

The Spreadsheet I am working on should prove useful, but if the goal is to make a guide to the reports as a whole, that will never be an easy task.

In many ways the most desirable information has already been published here on APUG, in one form or another. More is sure to come.

So Kirk, please don't be sour!

Do you want to go to the exact same place I do?
Fine. Visit me.
I will take you there.

Ray

 

[Ray Rogers]

- whatever...

The power of a single, well placed word will never cease to amaze me!

 

[Kirk Keyes]

Well, Ray, where exactly are you? You don't even have a location listed for your member info. I'd love to go with you. You know where I am.

 

[Kirk Keyes]

The power of a single, well placed word will never cease to amaze me!

Are we here to share, or to obfuscate?

Sorry, I could not do that with just one word.

 

[Ray Rogers]

with just one word...

Are we here to share, or to obfuscate?

Sorry, I could not do that with just one word.

Grayscale

 

[Ray Rogers]

Are we here to share, or to obfuscate?

Kirk,

Maybe I misunderstood your question.

"So where is it - perhaps one of use will be nearby to check it out?"

What is it you want to know?

My only experience with this word is from click and clack... (NPR's Car Talk) so I looked it up and if I obfuscated*, please point it out and I will deal with it.

"Obfuscation is the concealment of meaning in communication, making it confusing and harder to interpret." *(ala wiki)

I do not belive I did this.

I thought your question pretty strange since we are on opposite sides of the earth.

Maybe this has something to do with the confusion?

Or did I really obfuscate?

Ray

 

[Ray Rogers]

Well, Ray, where exactly are you? You don't even have a location listed for your member info. I'd love to go with you. You know where I am.

I am in Asia now.
I will take a look at the member info... but not being Asian, I may not feel comfortable saying I am from Asia....

Ray

 

[AgX]

Gold-Effect:

Later Koslowsky stated that Agfa had only been ahead of Kodak for about two years, by means of his gold-effect.

Kodak seem to have kept pace by their use of gold as chemical sensitizer. As in the 1939 Kodak Super XX, thus three years after the secret introduction of goldsensitation at Agfa, gold was found. (However, it is not stated whether that Kodak gold was found by Agfa in 1939 or later.) Kodak is said to have patented their own gold-effect in ’41.

But based on a use of 1,2 micromol gold per m² film by Agfa, I wonder how many area-units of Kodak emulsion Agfa had to dissolve in order to find out about Kodak using gold.

 

[Photo Engineer]

Your story sems to say we protected these people; that may be true but
I got the impression they were pressured and or "physically" encouraged...
the reports are vague in this respect.

That is a pretty low blow. Nobody is de·ny·ing Kodak's strength in research, but to characterize Agfa's ability as lacking capability is out of tune with the world as we know it.

I should point out that Kodak might even seem to lack capability
if you consider that it knew about gold sensitization much earlier than is usually acknowledged, but could not tame the reaction.

That one stop or so in speed had Kodak working 24/7 trying to catch up with Agfa,
much to the stress of Kodak researchers.



What do you mean by "identical"?
True, They were both positive emulsions, for making photographic paper.

Was Kodabromide was an ammonical emulsion?
Was Kodabromide a washed emulsion ?

I am curious if anyone knows what year Kodabromide first appeared.


To the best of your knowledge, Kodak never found that piece of information?

I am pretty sure I know where it is... I have uncovered the huge file it where it is probably sleeping, but it is so huge and disorderly that it will take a some time to examine fully. Transportation to the file site costs about 150 USD.

If any one wants me to look, I will send them my pay pal account information!

Humm... that said, if anyone wants to do some research on this or similar files but has other obligations, I could do this work for them by proxy....

Ray;

I started to edit your above into something usable, but it was too intercut with my comments to make it practical.

Basically, the FIAT reports state that the Agfa plant and R&D facilities had been subject to several years of heavy bombing (the same was true of the Konica plant in Hino due to proximity to the Hachioji steel works) and therefore the R&D and coating was as best as possible under very trying conditions. I think anyone could understand that! I need not explain more.

Data indicate that Agfa used at least 4 - 6 sensitizing dyes. One was Erythrosine, in their paper formulas, but the other was "unknown" and AFAIK, Kodak never followed up. I might add - why should they? They had many dyes of their own that worked well.

The Kodak R&D teams felt that Agfa had reduced gold sensitization to healthy functioning practice and Kodak learned a lot from it. I don't care to argue this. I know what was said by the engineers at KRL.

Kodabromide was an SRAD with Cadmium Nitrate at one point, but was revised to eliminate Cadmium by using a different formulation. I am using one more nearly like the second formula.

We did not protect anyone AFAIK, but then Kodak engineers were not there when the reports were written. When the war broke out, the US offered many Agfa and other Germans the opportunity to take asylum in the US. This included a number of extremely capable Jewish scientists and engineers who preferred to stay in the US. What can I say?

In regard to this, Arnold Weissberger, Asst Dir of R&D at EK, gave his son (and my office mate for a while) an autographed picture of many of the preeminent scientists at the Oxford conference in the late 30s. The photo was autographed by Einstein, Bohr, Weissberger, and a host of others. The Germans of Jewish faith were leaving the continent for England or the US. This is history.

PE

 

[Ray Rogers]

Ray;

I started to edit your above into something usable, but it was too intercut with my comments to make it practical.
PE

Sorry.
--
I did not know about the damage to the Konica plant.. but I lived in Hachioji for a spell and used to ride my bicycle around the plant.
It was very frustrating having such a large source of knowledge and experience right in front of my nose and not being able to go inside!
--

Data indicate that Agfa used at least 4 - 6 sensitizing dyes. One was Erythrosine, in their paper formulas, but the other was "unknown" and AFAIK, Kodak never followed up. I might add - why should they? They had many dyes of their own that worked well.
PE

I agree with you! That is why my search for the key files is probably wastefull. It is just your repeated comment that they are unknown that suggested to me I should get off my butt and find them, since I do think I have identified the specfic report that includes the key to their ID. But as it costs money and there are probably better dyes avail. today, I am not in a big hurry to lose another 200 bucks!

BTW, If I recall, I had a lot of color retention with Erythrosine, and this prevented my using it to its fullest potential. Have you seen this in your own emulsions? Is their a cure?

The Kodak R&D teams felt that Agfa had reduced gold sensitization to healthy functioning practice and Kodak learned a lot from it. I don't care to argue this. I know what was said by the engineers at KRL.
PE

I would not argue this because its true. I agree.
AIUI, The main contribution of AGFA research was not necessiarily the concept of gold sensitization, but rather, its controll.

I am using one more nearly like the second formula.
PE

Do you know about when the change was made?
Are you talking about the 60-70s?

Ray

 

[Photo Engineer]

Ray;

Kodak changed the Kodabromide formula in the 60 - 70 time frame due to Cadmium replacement.

Erythrosine can cause pink stain unless you know how to control it. There is a cure.

I think I said that Agfa scientists learned "control" so we don't disagree, but it seems that you think we do! Again

I have visited the Konica plant many many times and had some excellent meals with the research people from Konica at restaurants in Hachioji where I learned about KONISKI. If you don't know about this, you don't know about Japan. It was a dark time that did truly hold back R&D.

Ray, BTDT learned a lot. You have a lot of gaps in your lore and knowledge. I'm sorry, but this is not the time or place to fill in the gaps.

PE

 

[Ray Rogers]

The Flow of Knowledge...

I think I said that Agfa scientists learned "control" so we don't disagree, but it seems that you think we do!
PE

Not at all!
Here, "I agree" means "We agree".
I simply clarified what it is we were agreeing on.
---

"KONISKI"?

Do you mean the sumo wrestler?

"Sumo Returns to Hawaii
June 6, 2007 9:59 AM
...Takmiyama was the 1st Hawaiian Sumo wrestler followed by KONISKI, Akebono and Musashimaru."

Actually, there is a catchy little song dedicated to the last 3 IIRC but I could not find it to post here.
---

You have a lot of gaps in your lore and knowledge. I'm sorry, but this is not the time or place to fill in the gaps.
PE

OUCH! That was down right cold of you Ron! Please edit it out while you still have that option.

Yes, of course you are correct.

I am not one of those Mr. Know-It-Alls you frequently have run-ins with here.
I admit I have many many holes in my knowledge.

But they are not due to a refusal to listen and learn.
If anything, I think my holes are due to the lack of having a good full time teacher or mentor.

This may not be the time nor place, but then one wonders,
If not here, then where?
If not now, then when?

You know of course, RITs 3 semester course on silver halide chemistry has been history for some time now.

It is not your fault that I have gaps and you are correct that they exist, but never the less, to make public comments on the gaps in my knowledge serves no purpose other than to step on, as RS put it, a lowly "cockroach".

I do not see how it benefits you, me or APUG.

In my honest opinion.

Ray

 

[Photo Engineer]

Ray;

Koniski is common lore among Konica scientists and engineers and represents a low point in human life and misery. I suffered with them in my own way when I heard that story. It is there somewhere in Hachioji or known at the Hino plant. It shows too, how war slows or stops R&D.

As for learning, yes I know that the course at RIT is gone. Bruce Kahn, who is no longer there, used to teach it. There are some few courses taught there though by Rich Hailstone. There are also a few courses at Chiba you might look into. Mrs Kubo or Dr. Kubo might help you out. She is still teaching there AFAIK. Or, you could take my workshop or go to one of Denise Ross' get togethers. Again though, distance is your major problem.

What I said was not a "low blow", but rather a fact dictated by distance, resources and education. Your background is far different than say Kirk. This is no fault, we are each different and that is a fact, not a fault. So, please don't read into it what is not intended to be there.

BTW, if you have access to those Japanese records you allude to, you could post some of them.

PE