Agfa 12: origin date?

[Igor Savchenko]

Does anybody know a source with available date of creation of Agfa 12 fine grain developer? Or perhars (and ideally!) – dates of origin for all/most of Agfa developers? I tried browsing but no results so far, while some pre-WWII Agfa's booklets which I saw don't indicate the dates of creation for solution listed…

Was Agfa 12 the first Agfa's fine grain developer?

Appreciating your comments…

 

[AgX]

Most probably you'll have to dive into the Agfa archives...

 

[Tom Hoskinson]

Does anybody know a source with available date of creation of Agfa 12 fine grain developer? Or perhars (and ideally!) – dates of origin for all/most of Agfa developers? I tried browsing but no results so far, while some pre-WWII Agfa's booklets which I saw don't indicate the dates of creation for solution listed…

Was Agfa 12 the first Agfa's fine grain developer?

Appreciating your comments…

(German) AGFA 8 was probably earlier than (USA)AGFA 12 Fine Grain Tank Developer, (USA) AGFA 15 Fine Grain Tray Developer and (USA) AGFA 17 Fine Grain Borax Tank Developer

My Reference books list USA Agfa/Ansco 12 Fine Grain Tank Developer(Also listed as General Analine & Film - GAF 12 Fine Grain Tank Developer)

(USA) AGFA 17 Fine Grain Borax Tank Developer is very similar to Kodak D-76

(German) Agfa 8:

Water at 52 C 750ml
Sodium Sulfite anhydrous 12.5 grams
Glycin 2.0 grams
Potassium Carbonate 25.0 grams
Water to make 1.0 liter

I find AGFA 8 to be an excellent developer for portraiture - it gives very smooth skin tones.

 

[Mark Antony]

I have listing for Agfa 12 (1941)
http://photo-utopia.blogspot.com/
scroll down and when you see the 'Agfa update' post click on the yellow datasheet.
Mark

 

[AgX]

Nice hint (I copied that leaflet some days ago, but only the other page because of the fine scetch of that precut bulk film, and did not read about that developer.)

So we now now that Agfa 17 should had been on offer in the US some time before 1941.

But Igor inquired about Agfa 12. (Its creation, whatever that means: R&D, patent application, market introduction...)

 

[Ole]

I can't find any date either, but I'll check a few more books before I give up. I can't see any lower numbers than 12 marked as "FK", but some are missing from my list.
Just for the record, here's Agfa 12:

Metol, 8g
Sodium sulfite, 125g
Sodium carbonate, 6g
Potassium bromide, 2.5g

for 1 liter developer.

 

[Tom Hoskinson]

I have listing for Agfa 12 (1941)
http://photo-utopia.blogspot.com/
scroll down and when you see the 'Agfa update' post click on the yellow datasheet.
Mark

Yes, and the yellow sheet says:

AGFA ANSCO CORPORATION

Made in Binghampton, NewYork

This agrees with my AGFA/ANSCO formula books circa 1930.

The German Agfa formula numbers are not the same as the USA Agfa (Ansco or GAF) formula numbers.

 

[AgX]

Tom,

Thus Agfa 17 (US/Ansco) is identical to Agfa 12 (Germany) ??

 

[Ole]

Tom,

Thus Agfa 17 (US/Ansco) is identical to Agfa 12 (Germany) ??

I don't think so - the formula I posted is the German Agfa 12.

AGFA 8 and 10 are listed as Portrait- and amateur developers; 12, 14 and 16 are FK (Feinkorn, fine grain)

 

[Tom Hoskinson]

Tom,

Thus Agfa 17 (US/Ansco) is identical to Agfa 12 (Germany) ??

It is not, according to my data

GAF (ANSCO) AGFA 12
Fine Grain Tank Developer

Water 125F or 52C 750ml
Metol 8 grams
Sodium Sulfite anhydrous 125.0 grams
Sodium Carbonate anhydrous 5.75 grams
Potassium Bromide 2.5 grams
Add cold water to make 1.0 liter

GAF (ANSCO) AGFA 17
Fine Grain Borax Tank Developer

Water 125F or 52C 750ml
Metol 1.5 grams
Sodium Sulfite anhydrous 80.0 grams
Hydroquinone 3.0 grams
Borax Granular 3.0 grams
Potassium Bromide 0.5 grams
Add cold water to make 1.0 liter

AGFA-GEVAERT Fine Grain Developer - Agfa 14

Water 125F or 52C 750ml
Metol 4.5 grams
Sodium Sulfite anhydrous 85.0 grams
Sodium Carbonate monohydrated 1.2 grams
Potassium Bromide 0.5 grams
Add cold water to make 1.0 liter

 

[Igor Savchenko]

Many thanks to all replied!

Yes, in Russian-published darkroom recipes books ORWO (AGFA) 12 was listed the same as what Tom pointed GAF (ANSCO) AGFA 12, and exactly this formula has been accepted as the Standard Developer No.2 (fine grain) for testing all Soviet-made 35 mm and 120 type films.

Ansco/Agfa 17 is believed to be an Agfa's response to Kodak D-76 formula. If D-76 finds its origin in 1926, then Agfa 12 (which earlier than 17) should be not later than that year. The SD No.2 is still in production in Russia.

What was a motive/need to create A-12? Newely appeared 35 mm films? Films intended for photography(as I guess) or cinematography(as D-76 was for)? Was A-12 a kind of "standard" for fine-grain developing in Germany too?

I wish I could have an access to Agfa archives...

 

[Ole]

Igor,

A little guesswork here:

AGFA 12 (or ORWO 12; my book is a 1952 AGFA / VEB ORWO edition) is too old to be 35mm film. I suspect the need for fine grain developers was due to the increasing use of enlargers as 9x12 and 6.5x9cm formats (and 6x9 rollfilm) increased in popularity around 1910. Agfa 12 seems to have ben quite "standard", although Rodinal was also popular at 1:4 dilution.

AGFA 17 is not listed in my book. The first cinematography developers there are AGFA 12, 14, 15, 16 and 20!

 

[Igor Savchenko]

Igor,

A little guesswork here:

AGFA 12 (or ORWO 12; my book is a 1952 AGFA / VEB ORWO edition) is too old to be 35mm film. I suspect the need for fine grain developers was due to the increasing use of enlargers as 9x12 and 6.5x9cm formats (and 6x9 rollfilm) increased in popularity around 1910. Agfa 12 seems to have ben quite "standard", although Rodinal was also popular at 1:4 dilution.

AGFA 17 is not listed in my book. The first cinematography developers there are AGFA 12, 14, 15, 16 and 20!

Thank you, Ole!

 

[Tom Hoskinson]

Igor, my primary reference is a small booklet titled:

FORMULAS FOR PHOTOGRAPHIC USE

AGFA

The booklet was published by
AGFA ANSCO CORPORATION
Binghamton, New York

The Booklet's Trade Mark is dated June 9, 1920 (Booklet and Copyright Revised to June 15, 1939)

Cheers!

 

[nworth]

My guess is that these were all developed in the late 20s. There was a lot of development of both glycin and MQ developers about that time. D-76 and Agfa 17 are primary examples. Agfa 8 resembles Kodak's D-78, but I think Kodak was the copier there. Agfa 17 was derived from D-76.

 

[Tom Hoskinson]

Dead Link Removed

January 1928: Ansco merges with Agfa.

"Horace W. Davis, president of Ansco Photoproducts, Inc., of this city today announce the successful conclusion of negotiations affecting that company and Agfa Products, Inc. and Agfa Raw Film Corporation, which are marketing the photographic products of I. G. Farbenindustrie of Germany, known as Agfa Products. The plan contemplates the formation of a new corporation to take over the business and the manufacturing and selling organization of Ansco and the two Agfa Corporations, and will also obtain the benefits of the research work of the Agfa interests. To accommodate the sales expansion program contemplated in the United States, extensive additions will be started at an early date and will include the most modern photographic film production unit in the world. The new company will be under the active management of the present Ansco organization with headquarters at Binghamton." (Binghamton Press, Jan. 20, 1928.)

 

[Igor Savchenko]

Tom,
Many thanks for the link, it's quite informative and clarifying.

 

[AgX]

The archives situation is a bit complicated. Part of the Agfa archives are situated in Belin (Agfa was founded in Berlin and there for a long time it was juridically placed), another part is situated in Wolfen including the Orwo archives, and the archives of the Western Agfa from `45 to `64 is placed, I guess, together with the surviving part of the Gevaert archives and the post-merger archives in Mortsel.

 

[Igor Savchenko]

Thanks a lot to all contributed.
I'm going to contact archives in Germany (thanks to AgX).

 

[markjwyatt]

I find reference to Agfa 12 in the 1940 American Annual Of Photography (Vol 54), which was Copyrighted 1939. The 1932 version (Vol 46, copyright 1931) did not mention Agfa 12 (this is not conclusive of course). Both books had a section on Fine-Grain Developers. The 1940 book had six formulas (Kodalk based, Dupont Dr. Sease with 4 variations, Champlin 15, 2 @ Edwal- 12 & 20, and Agfa 12), the 1932 only three: Eastman, Wellington, and Rhodia Co.

Interestingly, in 1932 hydroquinone went by hydrochinon (not related to Agfa 12).

 

[AgX]

Hydrochinon is the german spelling. Think also of Chrome and Chrom.

 

[t-royce]

Another early date for Agfa 12, appears in my copyright 1937 booklet "Agfa Formulas for photographic use".

Also in that edition are the following numbered developer formulas:
Agfa 10, Agfa 15, Agfa 17, Agfa 20, Agfa 22, Agfa 30, Agfa 40, Agfa42, Agfa 45 (=EK D-1, info penciled in by past owner), Agfa 47 (=EK 61a, info penciled in by past owner), Agfa 61, Agfa 64, Agfa 70, Agfa 72, Agfa 77, Agfa 79, Agfa 81, Agfa 90, Agfa 94, Agfa 96, Agfa 103 (=EK D 72, info penciled in by past owner), Agfa 106, Agfa 110, Agfa 113, Agfa 115, Agfa 120, Agfa 125, Agfa 130, Agfa135

Fixer formulas Agfa 201, Agfa 202, Agfa 203,
Toner formulas Agfa 221, Agfa 222
Two formulas for desensitizers, Pinakrytol green and Pinakrytol yellow,
Three intensifiers, mercury, Monckhoven's, chromium.
Two reducers, Farmers, Flattening.
Formula for Acid stop, and chrome alum hardening bath, a reversing bath.