Advise: single bath fixing for fiber paper? Bad idea?

[Puma]

I've always used two bath fixing but due to a new house I'm thinking of making my darkroom a little more minimalist and elegant by changing to the Nova Monochrome processor and ecowash setup. This change eliminates a second fixing bath. Is this a terrible idea for fiber paper?

This change is expensive with shipping to the USA so I want to make sure I make a good choice.

Thanks!

 

[Arklatexian]

I've always used two bath fixing but due to a new house I'm thinking of making my darkroom a little more minimalist and elegant by changing to the Nova Monochrome processor and ecowash setup. This change eliminates a second fixing bath. Is this a terrible idea for fiber paper?

This change is expensive with shipping to the USA so I want to make sure I make a good choice.

Thanks!

We used single-bath for print fixing for many years. The double fixer idea came a good while after WW2 and was/is supposed to make your fixer last longer. Single fixing will work as long as you agitate in the fixer and don't try to use it too long. If you have room, do go for two trays. The second tray stays the freshest fix......Regards!

 

[Puma]

Thanks oldtimer!

 

[Slixtiesix]

I do not see a problem as long as you discard your fix soon enough. When using fresh rapid fixer, a single bath should fix an fb print as well as a double bath would do, the single bath just needs the double amount of time. After a dozen prints, things will look different. I once read that if you want to be on the safe side, you should not fix more than 10-12 prints (8x10) in single bath rapid fixer, while two bath fixing can extend that amount to more than 50.

 

[miha]

A double bath fixing regime is beneficial when you are dealing with a lot of prints as it saves fixer. If you can afford to change your fixing bath every 10 or so prints, you are still fixing to archival standards (a vague term with little meaning, I know).

 

[Andrew O'Neill]

A single, rapid fix is all you need.

 

[Leigh B]

A single, rapid fix is all you need.

Agreed.

I've only used single fixers since I started printing, decades before two-bath became popular.

Use a hypo test kit and change/discard any bath that fails.

- Leigh

 

[darkosaric]

I use single rapid fixer for 10 years or so: but I always obey manufacturer recommendation how many m2 of paper can be used and fixing time as well.

 

[Mr Bill]

I concur with what just about everyone said. But... if you do enough work that silver recovery makes sense, you won't be very successful with a single fix step - the silver concentration will be too low for effective recovery. Well, unless you use the heck out of it, but that's not what you want to do from the "archival" standpoint.

If you're gonna try getting your silver back with something like the "Silver Magnet," you really want to increase the silver concentration in the fixer. A two-stage fixer will let you do that while keeping the final fix pretty "clean." Plus you can cut fixer usage roughly in half. It's like a real life free lunch. Problem is, you have to be doing a significant amount of processing for silver recovery to be worthwhile. If cutting your fixer cost in half is too little to be worth the trouble, well, silver recovery is even less so.

 

[spijker]

I use a single fix (Ilford Hypam 1+4) in a Nova. It works fine as long as you keep track of how much paper goes through your fix. But you have to do that with a double fix as well. I drain some old fix from the Nova and top up with new (mixed) fix regularly depending on how much paper has gone through. That method works well for me.

 

[Bob Carnie]

I have always used two bath fixer , its in my blood now.

 

[Ian Grant]

With rapid fixers and fibre based papers 2 bath is far better, it's something I've done for years. If you use a single bath then keep the throughput low and withing the manufacturers recommendations. Err on the safe side fixer is cheaper than FB paper.

Older Sodium Thiosulphate based fixers were less likely to cause staining due to retained silver thiosulphate complexes in the paper base, Ansel Adams would fix then place in a plain Sodium Thiosulphate solution.

Ian

 

[tedr1]

I use single bath fixing and I always follow the fixer manufacturer's recommendation on fixer print capacity, Ilford publishes this information. I also have these fixer test strips for checking it http://www.ctlscientific.com/cgi/display.cgi?item_num=90741

 

[miha]

Older Sodium Thiosulphate based fixers were less likely to cause staining due to retained silver thiosulphate complexes in the paper base
Ian

Hi Ian, I have read whatever I could on fixers, have studied English and German literature but have never heard of sodium being less prone to form complexes. Can you elaborate, or share your source?

 

[Ian Grant]

Hi Ian, I have read whatever I could on fixers, have studied English and German literature but have never heard of sodium being less prone to form complexes. Can you elaborate, or share your source?

It's straight forward the Ammonium Thiosulphate/Silver complexes formed during the fixing process are less stable than their Sodium counterparts, some Ammonium ions can be absorbed by the cellulose in the Fibre based paper base causing week bonds between the cellulose and the silver complexes. This becomes problematic as Ammonium Thiosulphate based fixers become exhausted or the silver level becomes to high, as these complexes break down much more rapidly than when Sodium Thiosulphate is used.

There's plenty of literature about this, E.R. Brumpton and G.I.P. Levenson of Kodak Ltd (Harrow Research) published a paper on it. I don't have my copy of L.A. MAson's Photographic Processing Chemistry handy but there may well be a reference the paper i the book (Levenson was the editor and also contributed, Mason was head of research at Ilford).

Some books will list the advantages and disadvantages of Sodium Thiosulphate compared to Ammonium Thiosulphate.

The bottom line is Ammonium Thiosulphate fixers should not be used past their recommended capacity for archival processing FB papers and fixing times kept short, over fixing bleaches highlights and also increases the risk of staining. That's why Ilford's recommended fixing times are so short.

Ian

 

[M Carter]

It's not that hard to test your fixer and fixing time throughout a session with test strips. When my test strips take more than 45 seconds or so to clear, I know I'm getting to the end of my fixer's life. (I consider clear test strip time an absolute minimum and usually double that time, except for lith printing when fix is killing color. Usually I use an ammonium fix for those lith papers or use fresh but weaker fix for final prints and test everything). I also try to test on the same paper I'm using, unless it's my precious 16x20 Ektalure or something (which stands up to stronger fix just fine).

It's also easy to test prints for proper fixing (droplet of straight selenium toner) and for proper washing (residual hypo check).

I don't know why there's always so much discussion of various techniques, when you can quickly test how your process and chemistry is doing at a given moment of the day.

And yes, I'm aware that just testing fixer isn't perfect - my understanding is there are compounds building up in the fixer that aren't good for print longevity, even when the fixer isn't exhausted. 2nd bath is a good control for this since it breaks those compounds down (I don't know all the terminology, going by Dr. Rudman's writing here). But in my experience, considering fixer to be spent when fixing time slows has worked well.

 

[RalphLambrecht]

I've always used two bath fixing but due to a new house I'm thinking of making my darkroom a little more minimalist and elegant by changing to the Nova Monochrome processor and ecowash setup. This change eliminates a second fixing bath. Is this a terrible idea for fiber paper?

This change is expensive with shipping to the USA so I want to make sure I make a good choice.

Thanks!

two-bath fixing has advantages especially for FB papes but it is not a must.You can get an arcival process with a single fixing bath if you exchange the fixing bath sooner and more often. Also it means you have to check the fixing bath for silver content more often.two-bath fixing is just simpler and more robust.

 

[miha]

There's plenty of literature about this, E.R. Brumpton and G.I.P. Levenson of Kodak Ltd (Harrow Research) published a paper on it. I don't have my copy of L.A. MAson's Photographic Processing Chemistry handy but there may well be a reference the paper i the book (Levenson was the editor and also contributed, Mason was head of research at Ilford).

I have read the article suggested (The Staining Properties of Ammonium Thiosulphate Fixers, E.R. Brumpton & G.I.P. Levenson, published in The Journal of Photographic Science, 1965) with great interest. The article is not publically available, therefore I will not put in on-line here. However the abstract available to the general public: http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/00223638.1965.11737305

The article deals with the silver stains that are caused by ammonium fixer on cloth. It was shown there that trouble was encountered when the ammonium fixer contained more than 10 g/1 of silver…and The severe trouble was caused by contamination of cotton overalls with drops from freshly-fixed films, because the e contained a very high silver concentration, equivalent to 20-30 g/1.

These concentrations are quite irrelevant in practice because the silver concentration in the fixer should be kept below 2 g/l or even 0.5 g/l with papers (with films it can indeed go up to 10 g/l)

Two questions were posed by the authors: (1) In what way does the behaviour of the ammonium ion differ from that of the alkali metal to induce more rapid decomposition? (2) What is the role of the organic substratum (i.e. cloth, etc.) in the generation of the dark stain ?

A series of qualitative experiments have been conducted to answer these.

Now fast forward to the Conclusion part of the article: It seems quite clear, however, that the tendency of silverbearing ammonium-thiosulphate fixers to give stains stems from the loss of ammonia which leads to a drop in pH and to the degradation of sulphite and thiosulphate, with the eventual formation of finely divided sulphur: and it is suggested that the increase in the concentration of uncomplexed silver ion, resulting from the fall in the concentration of thiosulphate, allows a reaction between the silver ion and the organic substratum to give metallic silver which reacts with the sulphur to form silver sulphide /…/ and the conclusion from this is to keep the silver/thiosulphate ratio low in the exhausted fixer as was shown earlier.

I seems that following even the most loose criteria of capacity, reaching such a high level of silver concentration is practically impossible, but one never knows – I had been told by Mirko of Fotoimpex that people were complaining about the stains and upon researching the cause of this it has been revealed that they have been using the same fixer over and over again for more than 12 months waiting for the fixer to tell them it’s exhausted! For such practitioners a hypo might be a better option; their paper would end up being under-fixed but with a lesser chance of staining…
Thanks Ian.

 

[RalphLambrecht]

I do not see a problem as long as you discard your fix soon enough. When using fresh rapid fixer, a single bath should fix an fb print as well as a double bath would do, the single bath just needs the double amount of time. After a dozen prints, things will look different. I once read that if you want to be on the safe side, you should not fix more than 10-12 prints (8x10) in single bath rapid fixer, while two bath fixing can extend that amount to more than 50.

doubling the time doesn't help but actually hurts.the idea of archival processing is to fix strong and short.long fixing times allow the fixer to get deep into the paper fibers from where it is hard to wash them out .I is better to fix strong and short.that is what two-bath fixing does.If limited to one fixing bath. fix with rapid fixer (strong)for the standard time but exchange the fixer as soon as it has accumulated 1mg of silver/liter .then replace the fixer with a fresh working solution for the next print. under fixing is one of the most common processing errors.

 

[tedr1]

1mg? seems very low, perhaps 1g was intended?

Ilford publishes detailed instructions on the mixing, fixing times, keeping times and working capacity of its fixers for both RC and FB papers (which differ significantly) http://www.ilfordphoto.com/products/producttype.asp?n=8&t=Fixers+&+Sundry+Chemicals

Probably the other makers of fixer also publish details. There is no mystery, when instructions are followed (including making a note of paper area fixed) satisfactory fixing is assured.

 

[Sirius Glass]

I use a single fixing bath for fiber prints because I do not have room for the extra tray. No problems so far. If I want to do tinting, I would use a second fixing bath.

 

[Slixtiesix]

Ralph, what I meant was simply to follow the rules of the manufacturer because usually, if it says for single bath fix to fix for, let´s say 1 minute, a typical regime for two bath fix would be 2x30 seconds. Now I see that my initial explanation may have been a bit confusing...
I also see that I forgot something important: 10-12 8x10 prints in 1l of working solution of course. Without that, the whole recommendation would be pointless.

 

[RalphLambrecht]

1mg? seems very low, perhaps 1g was intended?

Ilford publishes detailed instructions on the mixing, fixing times, keeping times and working capacity of its fixers for both RC and FB papers (which differ significantly) http://www.ilfordphoto.com/products/producttype.asp?n=8&t=Fixers+&+Sundry+Chemicals

Probably the other makers of fixer also publish details. There is no mystery, when instructions are followed (including making a note of paper area fixed) satisfactory fixing is assured.

Yes, 1g

 

[Doremus Scudder]

A couple of general comments/observations.

First, two-bath fixing is way more economical; by a factor of 3-4. According to Ilford, throughput for "optimum permanence" should be 10 8x10-inch prints per liter of fixer. This assumes a dissolved silver content in the fix of 0.5g/l. Using their "commercial" standard of 2g/l extends the capacity to ~40 8x10s per liter of fix. Ralph's 1g/l recommendation would be somewhere in between.

I have no idea how you plan to monitor your fixer for dissolved silver. The best product (Ag-fix test strips) I have seen has a threshold sensitivity of 0.5g/l of dissolved silver. The "HypoCheck" drops are nowhere near that sensitive. That means that even with the best test strips, you are testing on the border of the test's sensitivity. Any margin of error there (and there surely is) could/would lead to overusing the fixer slightly. That's likely pretty good, but not as good as two-bath fixing where the second bath can be allowed to reach 5g/l. If there is a better convenient method to monitor silver concentration in a fixing bath that is more sensitive, I would really love to hear about it!

A second fix does not have to follow the first fix immediately. You can collect prints in a holding bath and give them the second fix at the end of the session in tray.

Single-bath fixing has little room for error; two-bath fixing has a built-in safety factor, especially if one underuses the first bath a bit.

Ilford document: http://www.ilfordphoto.com/Webfiles/2006130218312091.pdf -- See p. 4 for the section on silver concentration.
Ag-fix test strips: http://www.mn-net.com/tabid/10488/default.aspx

Best,

Doremus

 

[RalphLambrecht]

Dorms ,your ag fix test strips are a great way to test for silver content;I use them all the time with two-bath fixing to determine when to discard the first bath.