Advices for starting to do Lith Printing

AndreiF · Sep 1, 2015

Hello! Finally my powder is here! (Litho Developer Powder - Part( A & B) to make: 2x1 Gallons

BIg question about expiring:
Should I prepare the whole 1 Gallon of each solution and just store what I don't use? It will get exhausted very quickly? ? Or to mix just as much as stock that I need to make the working solution for one time?

To put it simple: It is a one shot developer or I can mix the whole content of a package to make stock solutions and keep it like that to be ready for preparing the working solution?
Thank you very much!

M Carter · Sep 1, 2015

I would treat it like any developer (if the powder is more than once chemical) and make the entire stock solution. There's just no way to take half a bag of powdered chemicals and get the same proportions as the whole bag. Ever mix a spice rub for cooking? Everything separates by size!

The instructions should tell you shelf life of the stock solution. There are numerous ways to protect it from oxidization, by storing in a bottle with almost no air, adding marbles to the bottle, using the bags from boxed wine or those collapsible bottles. Or putting a squirt of butane gas in before you seal the bottle.

I use Arista liquid A&B and never bother with any of that other than a dark cabinet. I use the stuff up fast enough that it's not been an issue - but I'm talking months for a bottle.

AndreiF · Sep 2, 2015

Thank you M Carter for the answer. Has no shelf life instructions but has instructions on how to make both of the solutions using the whole powder so, probably it is safe.
Can't wait to go to lab later today!

AndreiF · Sep 2, 2015

Hello, got the first prints, still drying! Very exited!
Well, got very well for the first shot ever, I had some "blind shots" but after that I manage to have some prints! Before the developer got exhausted.
In terms of tones I am very content BUT I have a (probably technical) problem. All the prints are "stained" with looks like some white marks coming from some powder, probably. I did agitated the whole time (the second batch) and got less, but still, a lot. When I clean my darkroom I did saw that on the bottom of the tray it was something that looks like some undiluted chemicals. This is way I have the marks ? (like in photos) And if so, it is because I prepared the A and B just hours before getting in the dark room?

What do you recon? I use Litho Developer Powder

Thank you in advince for the answer!

paul_c5x4 · Sep 2, 2015

Get yourself a box of vinyl exam gloves from a health & safety store or a local pharmacy. Get in to the habit of slipping on a clean pair each time you pick up a sheet of paper and never prod it with bare fingers when it is in the developer - This should help to reduce some of the spots, although it could be that you have a duff batch of paper that doesn't react well to lith developer.

AndreiF · Sep 3, 2015

paul_c5x4 said:
Get yourself a box of vinyl exam gloves from a health & safety store or a local pharmacy. Get in to the habit of slipping on a clean pair each time you pick up a sheet of paper and never prod it with bare fingers when it is in the developer - This should help to reduce some of the spots, although it could be that you have a duff batch of paper that doesn't react well to lith developer.

Thank you Paul for the advice. It is not about the hands though, because I did not touch the prints with the hands, I used tweezers. I will put a scan later so you can see the marks better.
What about that undissolved residue on the bottom of the tray, can you tell where comes from, what is it?

About the paper - I first used Fomatone MG clasic but looked like it is not lith - able(even on internet I found that is, this is the reason I bought it, so I tried with other paper that I have it at hand - Fomabrom variant 112, and it worked lot better!

Thank you

AndreiF · Sep 3, 2015

Still not scanned, but a better photo!
What do you think could be the reason for that white marks? (I actually like it, but clearly it is a problem, the negative or non lith prints are not like that
Thank you!

mooseontheloose · Sep 4, 2015

Andrei,

I have never mixed a dry powder lith (like Arista) although I do have some in my chemistry "pantry" that I hope to use in the near future. Perhaps others who have used it can comment better on it. However, I will ask - when you mixed it, was the powder fully dissolved? If not, then yes, the fact that you used it so soon after mixing may have caused those spots on your paper (I've never seen anything like that before). For most developers the common consensus is to wait 24 hours before using. It's possible the next time you use it it will be fine because it's had more of a chance to rest/dissolve.

If it's not that, perhaps your trays have some kind of contamination from other developers (or other chemicals). Do you always use the same trays for dev/stop/fix? Do you wash them after every session? To eliminate this as a possibility, I would wash/scrub down every tray to make sure it is as clean as possible before your next session. You may also do well to have different trays for lith (at least for the developer, which is what I do).

About the paper - I first used Fomatone MG clasic but looked like it is not lith - able(even on internet I found that is, this is the reason I bought it, so I tried with other paper that I have it at hand - Fomabrom variant 112, and it worked lot better!

Have you seen more recent news about this paper (MC classic)? There was an emulsion change a few years ago which changed how the paper would lith. If I remember correctly there may be more recent changes that have improved its lithability (look on the Facebook group - I see you've posted there too - I seem to recall reading some posts about this a while ago but can't find them now). Anyway, that may be the reason why the 112 worked better than the classic (which is what I normally use, but I have a lot of old stock).

Finally, another poster mentioned using gloves. Tongs are fine (especially for small prints), but gloves are even better - although YMMV. Personally, I find it a lot easier and quicker to move prints out of the developer using gloves, and since I can toss them after every print, it means there is less chance of contamination. The spots on your prints don't look like that kind of contamination to me, but in the past I have had problems with spots appearing after dry-down, and it turned out to be from the fix - even after washing my gloves, they will still contaminate the next print through the process. Anyway, I just mention it because that could be a source of contamination for your prints, although like I said, I don't that that is the case in this situation.

Anyway, let us know how your next session turns out and see if its any better.

AndreiF · Sep 4, 2015

Than you very much mooseontheloose for your detailed answer! (nice nickname by the way)
Good advice, and since is my first attempt to dilute any powder developer, I did not know that 24 hours "rule". When I developed I did not see some undiluted powder(I followed the procedure as describe on the envelope) But I supposed after the developing that maybe it was because of that..
Also I use the same tray for developing in general, I did scrub that before though. But I have a spar one I will use it from now on just for lith.
I have gloves too( I use that for the large format) so I give it a try at your technique next time!

Thank you again and I will let you know here how got the second session, I actually like it a lot, can't wait to go back to the darkroom)

mooseontheloose · Sep 4, 2015

Hey Andrei,

Yes, well, I think it's more of a guideline than a rule - mostly for film developers, I don't know about paper developers. I wouldn't even think of it except for the fact that mentioned precipitate, and that could be undiluted developer. How's your water? For print developing I usually use tap water but in my last house the water was so hard it created problems all over the place for me and I had to use distilled to mix any chemicals. Again, don't know if that's an issue for you, and its not something to worry about unless you can't eliminate the problem elsewhere.

I love lith - find it very addictive, unfortunately have not had time to devote myself to lith for a while now. Will hopefully have more of an opportunity this winter now that I'll have a few portfolios worth of pictures to print. Good luck with your own efforts.

AndreiF · Sep 5, 2015

Hi Mooseontheloose,

So, in the end, it was the paper, I did 2 prints (of the same photo) at the same time, with gloves in different trays on both Fomaprom variant 112 and Fomatone MG Classic. I did get marks again but only on one of the paper(Fomaprom variant 112), even there are days since I mixed the solutions.
Looks like that Fomaprom variant 112 it is not suitable for lith, that's why I was experiencing that "marks". Fomatone MG is it actually suitable, at the begening it was not looked like, but after last session I had good experiences with it! I will put these days some photos here, after I have my scanner back

Thank you
I love lith too, already! And I manage to get shorter times including 3-4 minute with good results! I will detail when I'll post the photos!

mooseontheloose · Sep 5, 2015

Wow - good to know its the paper, but bad too - I've never seen paper do anything like that! Anyway, post your photos when you get a chance.

M Carter · Sep 6, 2015

Un-lithable papers can produce the most bizarre artifacts, some of them like alien cellular life has taken over the emulsion. You'll see stuff you've never seen before.

And yep, Foma changed their gelatine base and killed lith-ability of all their papers. They are re-engineering a few emulsions and if you sign up for Tim Rudman's newsletter, he keeps track of batch numbers.

I never wear gloves and rarely use tongs for lith. I've found you have to be very careful that your hands are clean and dry when you handle the paper, from removing it to printing it to getting it in the tray - then no more fingerprints on the borders. You may still get some odd marks on print borders, even with gloves and tongs - I just bleach these out with ferri and fix before selenium toning (selenium will make them permanent).

But Andrei, I'll suggest this as you progress - 2nd pass lith has a lot going for it - much more control of local contrast in the print (with multigrade papers anyway) since you can use all the filtering techniques at your disposal; dial in a print and then hit it with some extra exposure (though often a half stop or a stop will do), and then bleach. This will often give you more color, too. You can use many modern papers this way.

Development is much much faster and can be done in daylight, another huge plus for judging the snatch point. Copper sulfate bleach opens up a new level of color, too. And you can still get that unique lith look. And most of us have ferri and pot. bromide on hand (and those are easy chemicals to get and inexpensive), so it's easy to take an afternoon and give it a try.

AndreiF · Sep 15, 2015

M Carter said:
Un-lithable papers can produce the most bizarre artifacts, some of them like alien cellular life has taken over the emulsion. You'll see stuff you've never seen before.

And yep, Foma changed their gelatine base and killed lith-ability of all their papers. They are re-engineering a few emulsions and if you sign up for Tim Rudman's newsletter, he keeps track of batch numbers.

I never wear gloves and rarely use tongs for lith. I've found you have to be very careful that your hands are clean and dry when you handle the paper, from removing it to printing it to getting it in the tray - then no more fingerprints on the borders. You may still get some odd marks on print borders, even with gloves and tongs - I just bleach these out with ferri and fix before selenium toning (selenium will make them permanent).

But Andrei, I'll suggest this as you progress - 2nd pass lith has a lot going for it - much more control of local contrast in the print (with multigrade papers anyway) since you can use all the filtering techniques at your disposal; dial in a print and then hit it with some extra exposure (though often a half stop or a stop will do), and then bleach. This will often give you more color, too. You can use many modern papers this way.

Development is much much faster and can be done in daylight, another huge plus for judging the snatch point. Copper sulfate bleach opens up a new level of color, too. And you can still get that unique lith look. And most of us have ferri and pot. bromide on hand (and those are easy chemicals to get and inexpensive), so it's easy to take an afternoon and give it a try.

Thank you very much for advice and ideas! I will try 2nd pass lith too, for sure, I like lith so much already!
I am already on Tim Rudman's newsletter. I am thinking buying the book too, it is worth it?

AndreiF · Sep 15, 2015

Finally, I have some scans! I tried different dilutions on Fomatone MG. Got short times, even some strange effects. I discovered that some photos came out almost the same as the 'normal" print. This happens sometimes or it is because I did not push to much towards a "lith image" ?
Anyway, some photos here, what do you think?

TheToadMen · Sep 15, 2015

AndreiF said:
Thank you very much for advice and ideas! I will try 2nd pass lith too, for sure, I like lith so much already!
I am already on Tim Rudman's newsletter. I am thinking buying the book too, it is worth it?

The book is a good read. But watch out for sharks asking enormous prices for it. Once in a while it also pops up for about $45 or so.

paul_c5x4 · Sep 16, 2015

I lust after pink tones in some of my lith prints. You seem to have cracked it with your combination of paper, chemicals, and dilution - I hope you are keeping good notes including paper batch numbers.

AndreiF · Sep 16, 2015

TheToadMen said:
The book is a good read. But watch out for sharks asking enormous prices for it. Once in a while it also pops up for about $45 or so.

Thank you for the advice, really appreciated!

AndreiF · Sep 16, 2015

paul_c5x4 said:
I lust after pink tones in some of my lith prints. You seem to have cracked it with your combination of paper, chemicals, and dilution - I hope you are keeping good notes including paper batch numbers.

I did, since the beginning, as good as I can. I will keep posting here, with details too, maybe gets helpful to someone else too!

AndreiF · Nov 3, 2015

I need an advice, as I did not use any of these: for better and divers effects with lith developer, which Selenium toner would be the choice between Ilford Selenium and Kodak rapid Selenium toner?
Thank you!

mooseontheloose · Nov 3, 2015

Either one.

AndreiF · Nov 5, 2015

Thank you!

Bob Carnie · Nov 5, 2015

Something that works for me is a slight bleach then sepia, followed by gold toner.. very peachy tones.

QUOTE=paul_c5x4;1953788841]I lust after pink tones in some of my lith prints. You seem to have cracked it with your combination of paper, chemicals, and dilution - I hope you are keeping good notes including paper batch numbers.[/QUOTE]

TheToadMen · Nov 5, 2015

Bob Carnie said:
Something that works for me is a slight bleach then sepia, followed by gold toner.. very peachy tones.

Sounds interesting. Could you show us an example, please?

Bert from Holland
http://thetoadmen.blogspot.nl

AndreiF · Jan 22, 2016

Hello everyone!

I do some lith printing for a short while now, you can see here www.andreifarcasanu.com It was everything great but I think I got the same paper but non lithable. Did Foma change there paper?
Since I started I always used Arista A+B different dilutions usually 1+14 or 1+9. And always Fomabrom MG classic 132. It was the one that I discovered it works with lith, as you can see on my webpage. But since a while I can't achieve the same "invasive" effect ()specific to lith) even I use the same developer, paper, technique etc...I mean, the lith version looks just like the normal version just other color, as you can see in the photo below
Did the paper change? And if, could be because that?? It happens to you also with Foma papers?

Thank you very much!

Advices for starting to do Lith Printing

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