Advices for starting to do Lith Printing

AndreiF · Jul 5, 2015

Hello everyone! I am tempted to try the lith printing and after some research on internet I still have some questions
I saw there are some "not exactly" lith developers, what are that. Also I intend to use foma paper as I saw it is very recommendable. Does it matters if it is variable contrast? Than, the developer, there are big differences between developers in terms of finishing way of looking, or is just about the price? In general I saw you need 2 different substance put it together. I found this developer to be the best suitable for me, what do you think about this website fotoimpex.de? Or do you know better places in terms of prices-quality?
Any other advice is highly appreciated!

Thank you very much!

Bob Carnie · Jul 5, 2015

google this site.. more info on lith printing than you will ever require.

Neal · Jul 5, 2015

Dear AdnreiF,

If you haven't seen this already, look here. In my experience, variable contrast papers work very well. The developer and paper choice will determine if you get that ultra grainy look. I use the simpler developers from the article linked to above and Foma papers that to my eye give a pleasing look, but I plan to try some of the Moersch products this fall.

The site you mentioned seems to carry a full range of quality products.

Lith printing is very enjoyable if you have patience. The print to print turnaround time is much longer than normal and requires that you pay attention during the entire developing step. I find the device that makes it easiest is a timer that can be set to multiple minutes of exposure.

Good luck,

Neal Wydra

RobC · Jul 5, 2015

Bob Carnie said:
google this site.. more info on lith printing than you will ever require.

which site would that be Bob ?

The master photographers lith printing course may still be available. The toning book isn't but you may get a used copy on the web for extortionate sums of money.

http://www.worldoflithprinting.com/author.php

paul_c5x4 · Jul 5, 2015

I think Bob means "Search the APUG archives".

Bob Carnie · Jul 5, 2015

Yes I am getting quite old and mixing my words lately... thanks Paul
I think the OP can find all he/she needs on APUG archives in relationship to Lith printing.

paul_c5x4 said:
I think Bob means "Search the APUG archives".

paul_c5x4 · Jul 5, 2015

AndreiF: If you are in Germany, Wolfgang Moersch would be a good source of information, chemicals, and paper. He has an online shop: http://www.moersch-photochemie.de/

Lith printing can be a bit hit & miss as many papers currently available do not respond well. One trick that often works is to over expose a print, bleach back, and then redevelop in a dilute lith developer. The bleach can be potassium ferricyanide, copper sulphate, chromium (not recommended), or one of the other rehalogenating bleaches. However, it is probably best to start out with a reliable paper & developer combination that is known to work.

Sirius Glass · Jul 5, 2015

AdnreiF welcome to APUG

From whether are you posting?

AndreiF · Jul 8, 2015

Wow, thank you all for the tips and information. Now it is much clear. The think is that I have been search but still had some questions like for example "multigrad or fix contrast paper" to be used. Now it is more clear , I live in Spain, Europe so I will probably buy the easy lith from Moersch (Thanks Paul) and use it with some Foma paper (that I already have it as it is my "base" paper") I will keep you update once as I have a good result!
Thank you again!

MartinP · Jul 8, 2015

Tim Rudman has a mailling list that he sends out occasionally. He does a summary of currently available materials (detailed right down to batch-number of particular papers) with tips about what has worked best for him.

The Moersch site also has some good notes on using their chemicals and currently available papers.

And, as mentioned, there is a website called Apug . . .

Good luck !

TheToadMen · Jul 8, 2015

I did some research recently on how to get into lith printing myself. I based it on the many good info and tips here on APUG and the information from Tim Rudman. I also viewed almost all lith prints in the galleries to see what combinations of paper and developer appealed to me most.

I decided and ordered:
* 1x Foma 133 Semi-matt, 9.5x12 (50 sheets)
* 2x Slavich Unibrom 160, Grade Normal, Gloss, 9.5"x12" (25 sheet)
* Moersch Easylith 500 ml.

I hope to start my first experiments during my holidays in August. Until then I hope to read Tim Rudman's book first.
I bought a 2nd hand copy for $45, so watch out for wacko prices on Ebay!!

paul_c5x4 · Jul 8, 2015

AndreiF said:
The thing is that I have been search but still had some questions like for example "multigrade or fix contrast paper" to be used.

To be honest, it doesn't really make much difference unless you have a difficult negative. With lith printing, you generally control contrast through exposure - Contrast is increased by reducing exposure and extending the development. Conversely, to reduce contrast, increase the exposure and reduce the development time.

TheToadMen · Jul 8, 2015

I don't believe anyone did mention this article yet?

Dead Link Removed

M Carter · Jul 8, 2015

It's all I've done for the last year or so...

You've got Tim's book - sign up for his newsletter. (About half the book deals with papers that are no longer made).

There are only one or two papers manufactured that lith straight - a foma or two (but they're just getting the new emulsion dialed in) and the Unibrom, which is very gritty and graphic (I don't like it).

I've spent a small fortune on expired paper on ebay - about half is great, some more is fogged but will work (no white highlights) and some is fogged black.

Graded or ungraded paper - doesn't matter with straight Lith. You control contrast with exposure.

2nd pass lith gives you way more control - especially with graded papers, and the bleach also has an effect (copper sulfate makes prints with tons of reds and browns, though you lose some in the fix).

Each paper responds differently and the chemistry changes print to print. Fixer can bleach things back too much, and my experience with 2nd pass is that Selenium acts like a bleach on the damn highlights. So take tons of notes, try to get one paper dialed in. You often have to really overexpose and sometimes flash (or even fog!) paper to get highlights to hold up (especially on 2nd pass).

Fixer to me is the thing to really dial in if you want to maintain color and highlights. Try alkaline fixer (once you start using TF-5 you'll never go back to rapid anyway, awesome stuff), and use test strips to find the EXACT fixing time (I have been leaning towards diluted fix as well, but timing it every 2 prints or so) so you can fix for the minimal time with a little safety margin. My .02 anyway!

Join the Facebook lith printing group, Tim and Wolfgang Moersch post their work and answer questions there and there's tons of nice work being shown there.

M Carter · Jul 11, 2015

Oh, and buy a tray warmer - just find an old buffet warmer with a heat control, something like this. Get the biggest one you can find, and be careful - on High, they are stupid-hot - I think that's why they're no longer made, you can really get a burn when it's turned up.

I use one of those flat glass thermometers in the developing tray to keep track of the temperature.

paul_c5x4 · Jul 11, 2015

M Carter said:
I use one of those flat glass thermometers in the developing tray to keep track of the temperature.

So did I until it got a tad too warm and the alcohol inside went right to the end and separated. Now I use a digital cooking thermometer - Good enough for lith printing.

M Carter · Jul 12, 2015

Man, I try to keep it ti 40c at the highest -that must have been simmering!!!

Bob Carnie · Jul 12, 2015

Are you heating up the developer to speed up the snatch time?

M Carter said:
Oh, and buy a tray warmer - just find an old buffet warmer with a heat control, something like this. Get the biggest one you can find, and be careful - on High, they are stupid-hot - I think that's why they're no longer made, you can really get a burn when it's turned up.

I use one of those flat glass thermometers in the developing tray to keep track of the temperature.

thefizz · Jul 12, 2015

There is also Imago Bromoil fibre paper which liths beautifully. Can be hard to control like Slavich Unibrom but when it works it's great.

M Carter · Jul 13, 2015

Bob Carnie said:
Are you heating up the developer to speed up the snatch time?

Yes indeed - with straight (or first pass?) lith printing, development times can be 30 minutes or more. Going up to 30-40C doesn't seem to affect anything but developing speed (I believe Tim Rudman states this in his first book). I've done prints that took close to 50 minutes. Not a lot of fun when you're dialing in exposure and burning!

You can speed up times with stronger developer, but since it's lithographic developer, it gets contrasty/gritty/etc pretty quickly. Lith really works by being very diluted (2nd pass mixes are often 5-5-2000 - that's pretty thin!) The more dilute, the more color, or so they say.

mooseontheloose · Jul 13, 2015

M Carter said:
Yes indeed - with straight (or first pass?) lith printing, development times can be 30 minutes or more. Going up to 30-40C doesn't seem to affect anything but developing speed (I believe Tim Rudman states this in his first book). I've done prints that took close to 50 minutes. Not a lot of fun when you're dialing in exposure and burning!

You can speed up times with stronger developer, but since it's lithographic developer, it gets contrasty/gritty/etc pretty quickly. Lith really works by being very diluted (2nd pass mixes are often 5-5-2000 - that's pretty thin!) The more dilute, the more color, or so they say.

Hot lith does affect the colour - I tend to get much stronger colours the hotter I go, but that may be a combination of developer/papers that I use. I generally try for 30-40 degrees for the same reason - some papers just take too long (up to an hour in some cases), and that's way too long for me to be rocking a tray doing nothing else.

AndreiF · Aug 17, 2015

Thanks guys for sharing info here! Thank you TheToadMan for sharing your list, let us know how was it.
I ordered myself the Arista Powder A/B Lith Developer and some Foma papr - Fomatone MG Classic 132
My lab it is close until 1th of September, so after that I will have somethings to share here!

mr rusty · Aug 17, 2015

I use moersch easylith. Never tried anything else yet. I use it 13ml + 13ml +900 water + 100 old brown (old used lith developer).

I find foma liths with colour (there was a url link here which no longer exists) (this one is using 331 RC paper)

and slavich comes up almost like a pencil/charcoal picture (there was a url link here which no longer exists) but tones in selenium nicely (there was a url link here which no longer exists)

Unlike others I really love unibrom for lith.

I expose both foma and unibrom +2 - 2 1/2 stops. i.e. I measure the "normal" exposure on my analyser and then just punch in +2 1/2

I have found (and others concur) that if using rapid fixer, you have to archival wash before selenium toning or you get blotchy staining.

This is just my technique. With lith there are many variables. Just get stuck in and see what happens.

Bob Carnie · Aug 17, 2015

I have been off lith printing for quite a few years now, basically because of solarization, which has taken complete control of my personal work.

But a good client of mine has what I think is the perfect body of work for Lith and I look forward to doing it again, for years I printed Lith continuously, early 90's to about 2008.

I liked the Slavich paper grade 4 with the Lith AB , I mixed strong and had 4 min maximum emergance time, this go around I may see what this second pass is all about.
Also the foma matt paper was quite nice and Ilford Warmtone, so I am glad there is still options out there.

I was hooked on Stirling Lith in Nova A B , but unfortunately those days are gone.

M Carter · Aug 18, 2015

I've been playing the Moersch Omega, which really can pop the color. It also speeds up printing sessions, and it can be easier to get consistency with stronger developer and shorter times. It's cheap and mixes like 4:300 so it's not an expensive addition.

Depending on the paper used, you can dial back the color Omega adds with Selenium… colors fade, blacks get deeper, blacks cool off, color disappears, color returns but with a more split-toned look. Some Omega tests - not the best negs but I found I had a pack of old Maco gloss and wanted to test it, nice lith paper - (uneven development look is actually from my scanner glass which has clouded on the underside):

Advices for starting to do Lith Printing

AndreiF

Bob Carnie

Neal

RobC

paul_c5x4

Bob Carnie

paul_c5x4

Sirius Glass

AndreiF

MartinP

TheToadMen

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