Advice, tips, warnings, (encouragement... if possible) etc re rotary drum printing

[hoganlia]

Hi folks. I have found my mount and dismount darkroom to be more or less unfeasable for a number of reasons, but I have also discovered a possible (healthy) addiction to printing. As such I am converting my study into a study/darkroom where I can print whenever it takes my fancy.
I have a few restrictions but the conversion is almost cost-free apart from the purchase of a Cibachrome-A DY drum (8x10 model) and a small eTone Roller (manual) and have been studying up on the process. I feel reasonable confident but I thought it might be worthwhile to ask if any experienced tank-printers here could share thoughts, advice, warnings, tips and so forth that may help me in my new adventure. I will be printing 5x7 and 8x10 only (at this point). I can't afford a JOBO electronic system or anything like that at present and will roll my own way to heaven by hand.

OK, thanking you in advance for your thoughts. The plethora of advice on previous threads I have posted has be amazing in your generosity and helpfulness.

Take care all!

Joe

 

[xkaes]

There are lots of people here that use trays AND drums -- for various reasons. #1, you don't need a fancy system to use drums -- just a drum and a table. The drums are really cheap and tables are usually free.

PLUS, with drums, you save space, your paper gets FRESH chemicals every time, you use less chemical, and you are forced to be accurate in processing time -- no pulling out or keeping in malarkey!!! And none of this "use to extinction", adjust processing time calculations, replenishment rate MUMBO-JUMBO.

Trays have their place. I use them all the time. But if you are accurate -- and you should want to be -- use TUBES (but not ALL the time).

 

[MattKing]

Look for one of the rotary agitators - Beseler, Unicolor, Cibachrome et al.
Like one of those seen below depicted with a film developing apparatus.
Also get some flat bottom trays to sit things in.
I use six moderately sized, wide mouthed graduates - best if you have three sets of two with each set being visually distinctive. Mine are 600 ml each, which works well.
Pus three over-size shot glass type measuring graduates that hold ~ 150 ml each, which is a good size for the Cibachrome tubes I use - most often 8x10, but 11x14 (12x16 as well).
I start with three graduates full on one side (left side in my case) - developer, stop bath (and yes you want indicator stop bath rather than water) and fixer respectively.
As each chemical is required, I pour if from the graduate into the smaller shot glass graduate associated with it, and from there into the developing tube.
After each stage of the process finishes, I pour the used chemical into the 600 ml graduate on the other side.
After all the chemicals have made there way from the 600 ml graduates on the left, through use in the tube, and then into the collection 600 ml graduates on the right, I check the indicator in the stop bath. If it is still yellow, I switch the right side graduates to the left, and vice versa, and repeat as needed.
A long time ago I checked the capacity calculations with RC paper, Polymax T developer, either Kodak or Ilford indicator stop bath, and either Kodak or Ilford Rapid Fixer or Hypam, and came to the conclusion that the indicator in the stop bath was a reliable and conservative measure for the capacity of the other two chemicals, so I discard/recycle all three when the indicator turns.
Washing is pretty standard - in a tray, with water dribbling into it from a tap. I use an old tray that I drilled a few holes in at one end.
It makes a huge difference if you have more than one tube - I try to have at least three. That way you can finish with a tube, rinse it, quickly dry it with a towel and then have the drying finish via air drying, while you go on to use the next tube for the next tube.
I also use a dish drying mat, and several old tea towels. The best ones are old souvenir linen towels, as well-used linen is quite free of lint.
The agitator:

 

[pentaxuser]

PLUS, with drums, you save space, your paper gets FRESH chemicals every time, you use less chemical, and you are forced to be accurate in processing time --

Is there no possibility that that the small amount of developer can be used more than once or íf not, then is it not possible to say make up 600ml of developer, pour back into the 600ml container and re-use more times than would be possible with dumping the amount required each time until the equivalent of 600ml was used?

Edit: It looks as if Matt may have answered my question above but I was composing my question not realising that Matt has replied while I was composing

It is many years since I printed RA4 but I think I must have used a developer manufacturer recommendation as to how many prints 600ml could develop

I was unaware until I saw Matt's reply that an indicator stop bath was a useful test to apply

pentaxuser

 

[Ben 4]

That should work perfectly well! As Matt suggested, you could look for an electric roller base (mine is Beseler) if you find you like drum printing.

 

[xkaes]

Matt's contraption probably works fine -- a Mattraption -- but it sure looks time consuming. Processing rolls of film in tubes wastes a lot of chemicals -- if used once. Processing sheets (of film or paper) in tubes DOES NOT. Apples and oranges.

 

[MattKing]

Matt's contraption probably works fine -- a Mattraption -- but it sure looks time consuming. Processing rolls of film in tubes wastes a lot of chemicals -- if used once. Processing sheets (of film or paper) in tubes DOES NOT. Apples and oranges.

The contraption pictured was simply my effort to see if I could use rotary processing for film with tanks that take steel reels.
And it works well, although if you use it with steel tanks, it makes a lot of noise. The outer plastic container is only there because the steel reel tanks I have are both two short to otherwise work with that agitator, and prone to leaking a bit when agitated that way.
I mostly use that agitator with either:
1) rotary tubes for print processing - as per the subject of this thread and discussed above; or
2) more frequently, for film, Paterson Super System IV tanks that take 2 x 120 reels or 3 x 135 reels, replenished developer, one-shot (normally) stop bath, and rapid fixer that is reused until it reaches capacity - thus very little chemical waste.
I used that photo to illustrate, because it was the only one I had that showed the agitator. For the purposes of this thread, you can ignore all the rest.
Here is another photo of a similar agitator borrowed from eBay:

 

[hoganlia]

Gadzykes! Lots of new vocabulary....

Thanks everyone... I have read everything but there are some things I need to get my head around, and also, which is nice, lots of things that I had not taken into consideration. I am sure that I will be replying on a more individual level later, but just for now there are a few questions I have and some clarifications.

As I said in the original post, I am only doing B&W for the moment. Secondly, I will not be motorised for some time given the level of Spanish pensions and the fact that I am aleady over my budget for setting up my darkroom, paper, chemicals and all the basics I cannot be without. I shall continue to be a Luddite for some time yet.

a few questions re chemicals and use. I used ADOX Adotol-Konstant powder as a tray developer and was happy with that but I think a liquid based developer is more in line with my needs in this case. I have just ordered Adox NEUTOL Eco Developer. My go-to stop bath is the Bellini Indicator Stop Bath which certainly does indicate with a very evident change in colour, and for the fixer ADOX Adofix. I use both the stop bath and fixer in film developing so they are nothing new to me. However......

The Adox Neutol eco paper developer gives mixer ratios and times: 1+4 at 50 seconds for RC (which is me) but I had read somewhere that in Rotary Drum paper developing, the time should be slightly reduced.... I would appreciate any guidance on that.

One printer (Aleksandr|NordicLab) I came across on YouTube talked about using 200ml chemicals in each development .... could any of you confirm (or deny) that as a starting point? I'll be using 5x7 or 10x8 paper in a 10x8 drum.

For now, I think that's the lot.

I really do appreciate the input and time all of you put into me helping out.... if you are ever in Spain....

 

[MattKing]

The Adox Neutol eco paper developer gives mixer ratios and times: 1+4 at 50 seconds for RC (which is me) but I had read somewhere that in Rotary Drum paper developing, the time should be slightly reduced.... I would appreciate any guidance on that.

With print developer, you are developing to near completion. Basically, you develop until adding more time makes so little difference, that you may as well stop. Longer tends toward better, within reason.
You will achieve more dependability and consistency with a slightly longer development time, used consistently.
If the manufacturer suggests 50 seconds, I would use something between 60 and 90 seconds.

One printer (Aleksandr|NordicLab) I came across on YouTube talked about using 200ml chemicals in each development .... could any of you confirm (or deny) that as a starting point? I'll be using 5x7 or 10x8 paper in a 10x8 drum.

The amount to use is dependent on what tube you are using. The Cibachrome tubes I use have a built in cup that the chemicals first go into. 150 ml does a good job filling a good portion of that cup.
What do the instructions for your chemicals say about capacity? How many 8x10 prints per litre of working solution do they indicate? You can calculate back from that what the minimum amount would be for one print. After that, it is a question of having enough liquid to properly cover the emulsion of the print for as long as necessary.

 

[hoganlia]

With print developer, you are developing to near completion. Basically, you develop until adding more time makes so little difference, that you may as well stop. Longer tends toward better, within reason.
You will achieve more dependability and consistency with a slightly longer development time, used consistently.
If the manufacturer suggests 50 seconds, I would use something between 60 and 90 seconds.



The amount to use is dependent on what tube you are using. The Cibachrome tubes I use have a built in cup that the chemicals first go into. 150 ml does a good job filling a good portion of that cup.
What do the instructions for your chemicals say about capacity? How many 8x10 prints per litre of working solution do they indicate? You can calculate back from that what the minimum amount would be for one print. After that, it is a question of having enough liquid to properly cover the emulsion of the print for as long as necessary.

Thanks Matt, I couldn't reply earlier. There are no inidcations on the tank so I measured the capacity of the cup which is 200ml. As for number of prints, at present rather than waste papaer and instead concentrating on getting things right, Ill be doing only one paper at a time; test strip, test run, and hopefully final (hopefully being the optimum word) print. I'll also keep an eye on the stop bath
Thanks for the suggesting regarding time.

Two further points. My "hi-tech" roller is in fact an eTone Universal Processing Roller Base .... more basic impossible. It's far shorter than the tank but apprears to be stable. What I am unsure about is the incline towards the tank head but I have also noticed this with other rollers, including JOBO... I presume that does not impede an even chemical wash for the papers.

The blooger, https://remorseblog.blogspot.com/2018/08/developing-film-in-cibachrome-drums.html suggests flexing the paper to compensate for the natural RC curve and ensure the emulsion side is always inward. It makes me a but nervous about perhaps craking the emulsion but I shall try.

My drum came with a sort of oversized hairclip.... perhaps to remove the printed paper?

That's all for now folks!

Joe

 

[Ben 4]

Don't worry about cracking the paper—short of folding it, you can't easily do that. Just use your hand to curve it sufficiently to fit into the tube and you'll be fine. There was a discussion here recently about color print developing in tubes that touched on minimum chemical quantities.

 

[hoganlia]

Don't worry about cracking the paper—short of folding it, you can't easily do that. Just use your hand to curve it sufficiently to fit into the tube and you'll be fine. There was a discussion here recently about color print developing in tubes that touched on minimum chemical quantities.

Thanls for the reassurace Ben. I'll check out that thread now. Much obliged.

 

[MattKing]

Two further points. My "hi-tech" roller is in fact an eTone Universal Processing Roller Base .... more basic impossible. It's far shorter than the tank but apprears to be stable. What I am unsure about is the incline towards the tank head but I have also noticed this with other rollers, including JOBO... I presume that does not impede an even chemical wash for the papers.

Which tank are you using?
If there is an incline that matters, you could consider wrapping something around one set of the rollers so as to raise up the lower end.
As long as the somewhat triangular shape of the pool of chemical in the tube is deep enough at both ends to cover the paper it should work.
To aid with stability, and avoid the "wandering tube" effect I put thick rubber bands on the tank at positions which stop the tank from moving slowly toward one end.
Manual rotary agitation works fine - it just is tiring, and it keeps you occupied, so it is a bit harder to do the measuring and pouring of the next chemical while the current chemical is in use.

 

[hoganlia]

Which tank are you using?
If there is an incline that matters, you could consider wrapping something around one set of the rollers so as to raise up the lower end.
As long as the somewhat triangular shape of the pool of chemical in the tube is deep enough at both ends to cover the paper it should work.
To aid with stability, and avoid the "wandering tube" effect I put thick rubber bands on the tank at positions which stop the tank from moving slowly toward one end.
Manual rotary agitation works fine - it just is tiring, and it keeps you occupied, so it is a bit harder to do the measuring and pouring of the next chemical while the current chemical is in use.

The tank is a Cibachrome-A 8x10 DY.

Thanks for the rubber band suggestion... I already have a box of them to stop light-leaks on my Zero pinhole and a Holga 120. Useful little thngs, aren't they?

Your last point, I had assumed life would not be all peaches and cream in this adventure. Once I feel ok with things and a little more healthy economically, I might check out a mechanised roller.