Advice sought. The Photographers Toning Book reprinting options.

[Toffle]

Thanks again everybody. I am really encouraged by your comments to pursue this further.

PS Ralph: how do you know how many views a thread has had?
Tim

If you navigate upwards in the forum directory, in this case under Product Availability, it will show the threads and view count... at this point you're up to 1119. That is a fair amount of interest. That should be some guide to whether it is worth your effort to pursue this idea further.
(any thead I start usually peters out at around 6 views... :rolleyes: )

Cheers,

 

[MattKing]

I also think that this is the best option. Tim has a good reputation and his valuable books have sold well in the past. He is a very small risk for any publisher to take on. He is an established author, and there is no need for him to go into self-publishing at this point.

This thread had over 800 views already, and that might be all a new publisher needs for evidence. Or, was that the idea to begin with?

In any event, Tim, don't risk to cheapen the quality of your publications. You don't need that. Forget PoD and find another publisher.

Ralph:

Maybe you should ask your publisher to consider a 2 book package - yours and Tim's.

I'd certainly consider both!

Matt

 

[slumry]

Throw in Dick Arentz's book on Platinum and Palladium Printing and you will have the Holy Trinity. All I know is if these books all come back into print, my net worth will drop a lot, but I am willing to scrafice for the greater good.

 

[Moopheus]

How many copies of a new printing would have to sell in order to make a new printing by a normal publisher viable? Could it be done if 1,000 copies were pre-sold?

Probably not. I'd guess (just a rough guess based on the copy I have here, and it's been a while since I've had to buy book printing) that the print run would have to be at least 3 or 4 thousand to get the unit cost anywhere near low enough. And no publisher is going to print that many just to sell a thousand if they don't think it's going to have a backlist life. There would be very little profit in it for them.

 

[bwfans]

I agree with Ralph's several posts about Tim's book. Don't lower the quality. My suggestion is, update the book, add some pages, change the cover to make a difference so people know to buy a second edition.

I have Tim's Master printing course (2 copies at least), Lith printing course, Toning book, and the World of Lith Printing. They are all very useful books for long term use.

I have Ralph's excellent Way Beyond Monochrome and glad to hear the second edition will be out soon.

 

[AmandaTom]

There just aren't any other books about toning that even come close to this one, so it's not like there is any risk of flooding the market should a new edition come out. When I bought my copy 6 months or so ago, I got it because it was touted as the definitive work on the subject. The color plates are vital to understanding the subject, and I pore over them when trying to achieve a particular look. I can't imagine that there wouldn't be a market for it. [Very glad to hear Way Beyond Monochrome is coming out with a second edition--I had a heck of a time getting my copy.]

 

[tim rudman]

Probably not. I'd guess (just a rough guess based on the copy I have here, and it's been a while since I've had to buy book printing) that the print run would have to be at least 3 or 4 thousand to get the unit cost anywhere near low enough. And no publisher is going to print that many just to sell a thousand if they don't think it's going to have a backlist life. There would be very little profit in it for them.

This is not my experience for a re-print Moopheus. It is probably true for a first printing because of all the set up costs. 1000 for a reprint is not unheard (last 2 reprints of the lith printing course were for 1000) of and 1000 presold books would be well worthwhile I think
Tim

 

[tim rudman]

Just out of curiosity, I checked out the CS community forum. (always a good place to start) This is excerpted from the first post I read...

"CreateSpace's low costs mean substandard production quality compared to, say, Lulu. Get over it."

"...As a test, I ordered the same book through CreateSpace and Lulu a while back, and Lulu's was far better in quality."

The poster lists a litany of errors in printing and shipping. Granted this was in a thread that was approximately three years old. Newer posts report better results.

I hope you find a solution that will allow you to reissue this valuable resource.

Cheers,

Thanks for that Tom. The more I converse with them the more I feel they aren't listening but just sending back pre-written standard sales pitches.
Tim

 

[tim rudman]

If you navigate upwards in the forum directory, in this case under Product Availability, it will show the threads and view count... at this point you're up to 1119. That is a fair amount of interest. That should be some guide to whether it is worth your effort to pursue this idea further.
(any thead I start usually peters out at around 6 views... :rolleyes: )

Cheers,

Thanks Tom, I hadn't noticed that and I had no idea how much interest there was still out there. That is really inspiring - and very gratifying . Thank you.

 

[RalphLambrecht]

Probably not. I'd guess (just a rough guess based on the copy I have here, and it's been a while since I've had to buy book printing) that the print run would have to be at least 3 or 4 thousand to get the unit cost anywhere near low enough. And no publisher is going to print that many just to sell a thousand if they don't think it's going to have a backlist life. There would be very little profit in it for them.

The financial viability depends a bit on the way the first book was produced. If it was a conventional offset print, such as on a Heidelberg press, and the metal plates are still around (not always the case), then it is worth to make as few as a 1,000 copies. Offset printing 1,000 copies directly from a digital master is no problem at all.

 

[RalphLambrecht]

Ralph:

Maybe you should ask your publisher to consider a 2 book package - yours and Tim's.

I'd certainly consider both!

Matt

I'll talk to him on Monday!

 

[Martin Aislabie]

Tim, do you have additional material to add to the Toning book to make a revised / 2nd edition?

Take "Way Beyond Monochrome" as example, an updated and expanded 2nd edition will have quite a few of us who already have the original buying the new version as well.

Please don't be tempted to go for a "cheap & nasty" reprint - the beautifully reproduced colours of the original helped to explain the subtle toning effects the texts were alluding to - in a way that only pictures can

My $0.02

Thanks

Martin

 

[RalphLambrecht]

...Please don't be tempted to go for a "cheap & nasty" reprint - the beautifully reproduced colours of the original helped to explain the subtle toning effects the texts were alluding to - in a way that only pictures can

My $0.02

Thanks

Martin

I think Tim is not considering PoD anymore, but still, your point is valid. PoD is great to make a prototype of a book before offset printing. It is also great for small runs up to 100, but I would not seriously consider it for traditional book publishing. Most of the cost ends up in the printing. Now it ends up with Amazon.

 

[pentaxuser]

Maybe there's a 3 book package to consider. Unless I have misunderstood the situation based on my research into Amazon, Tim's The Photographer's MASTER PRINTING COURSE is now on the scarce list as well and I'd have thought that this has the bigger volume potential Every darkroom worker prints whereas toning is the next stage that not everyone moves on to. Of all the printing books I have and I have three good ones( but not Ralph's yet), this one wins the prize in terms of content and instructional ability.

pentaxuser

 

[Moopheus]

Now it ends up with Amazon.

No more than used to be the case with the big chain stores and the wholesale distribution centers (Ingram, etc.). Or Wal-Mart, Costco, etc. (which sell a lot of books). A few years back, there was a big class-action lawsuit where the big publishers got sued for giving the big accounts preferential discounts, so they don't do that anymore (which is not to say they can't offer volume discount, but they have to offer the same discount to all buyers).

Any publisher who allowed most of his cost to be printing would go out of business.

 

[tim rudman]

Tim, do you have additional material to add to the Toning book to make a revised / 2nd edition?

Take "Way Beyond Monochrome" as example, an updated and expanded 2nd edition will have quite a few of us who already have the original buying the new version as well.

Please don't be tempted to go for a "cheap & nasty" reprint - the beautifully reproduced colours of the original helped to explain the subtle toning effects the texts were alluding to - in a way that only pictures can

My $0.02

Thanks

Martin

I had planned extra chapters originally Martin, but they were relatively 'fringe' compared with the core content. I'm not sure I want to go there now. It was quite a labour of love and it's not exactly an area rich with change and new developments. Was there something missing that you would want to see included?
I have another project in mind at present & I would need serious tempting.
Tim

 

[Martin Aislabie]

I had planned extra chapters originally Martin, but they were relatively 'fringe' compared with the core content. I'm not sure I want to go there now. It was quite a labour of love and it's not exactly an area rich with change and new developments. Was there something missing that you would want to see included?
I have another project in mind at present & I would need serious tempting.
Tim

Tim, the book does come across as a labour of love

The current book covers in great detail just about every aspect of Toning most people could reasonably expect - which is why many of us refer to it as the Toning Bible.

However, if you had additional/peripheral work to add to the book or even minor updates to the texts to deal with the currently available materials – remember - many of us are just looking for an excuse to justify buying the 2nd edition of condensed wisdom.

Martin

 

[RalphLambrecht]

Tim, the book does come across as a labour of love

The current book covers in great detail just about every aspect of Toning most people could reasonably expect - which is why many of us refer to it as the Toning Bible.

However, if you had additional/peripheral work to add to the book or even minor updates to the texts to deal with the currently available materials – remember - many of us are just looking for an excuse to justify buying the 2nd edition of condensed wisdom.

Martin

Martin

Don't underestimate the labor it takes to get from the 1st to the 2nd edition. It took me 7 years of hard work to do that for 'Way Beyond Monochrome'. A new printing is one thing, a new edition is quite another.

I suggest: One step at a time. If the current printing is sold out, reprint so folks in need if the information can get to it. Then give Tim the time while the 2nd printing is selling to work on the 2nd edition.

 

[tim rudman]

Martin

Don't underestimate the labor it takes to get from the 1st to the 2nd edition. It took me 7 years of hard work to do that for 'Way Beyond Monochrome'. A new printing is one thing, a new edition is quite another.

I suggest: One step at a time. If the current printing is sold out, reprint so folks in need if the information can get to it. Then give Tim the time while the 2nd printing is selling to work on the 2nd edition.

I agree with you Ralph.
I would be interested (no more than that at this point!) to know if there are additions that people would like to see though, so apuggers if you have thoughts on this please let me know.
Tim

 

[eddie]

My copy listed for $29.95, when I bought it. After receiving it, I would have gladly paid three times that amount. It has so much information, unavailable anywhere else, that it should be reprinted. Anyone serious about their printing/toning is doing themselves (and their work) a disservice by not owning it. Mine is referred to so often that it never gets put back on the shelf... If priced at $59.95, it will cost the same as 50 sheets of 4x5 T-Max. A fair price, if you ask me... And, a price that Tim can probably make some well deserved money.
If there were additions to the new edition, I would happily buy a new copy.

Maybe the question should be, "What would you be willing to spend on a copy, if produced as finely as the original?"

 

[MattKing]

I have to be honest, I have never heard of this book before. I would like to know more about what is in it, because I am in charge of ordering books for the library at the university I teach at.

Greg:

It is a great and incredibly useful resource. Here is an informative Amazon link:

http://www.amazon.com/Photographers-Toning-Book-Definitive-Guide/dp/0817454659#reader_0817454659

Matt

 

[tim rudman]

Greg:

It is a great and incredibly useful resource. Here is an informative Amazon link:

http://www.amazon.com/Photographers-Toning-Book-Definitive-Guide/dp/0817454659#reader_0817454659

Matt

Thank you for that link Matt - but please don't take the quality of those dire scans as representative of what is in the book!

Greg, there is a nice review here that might be of interest to you
http://unblinkingeye.com/Books/Reviews/Toning/toning.html
Tim

 

[eclarke]

It's sad that while thousands of acres of landfill fodder get printed daily there is so much difficulty printing these worthwhile books!!..Evan Clarke

 

[delphine]

I agree with you Ralph.
I would be interested (no more than that at this point!) to know if there are additions that people would like to see though, so apuggers if you have thoughts on this please let me know.
Tim

Tim, yes there are some additions that I'd like to see included. The book is complete as it is, and it is a book that I refer to very often. However, very often, there are points which are covered but that I feel could be detailed/expanded further. I have bleaching (various types of bleaches) and bleach/redev technics in mind. If I remember well (I am not at home), the printing course had more information about bleaching than the toning book has.

I would be interested in a basic chemic-o-pedia (I am making up my word here), meaning basic information about common chemicals used in recipes to understand better their role, use, function/purpose so that in turn, I am better able to understand recipes themselves. So many times I wonder why do we add this or that, and what is more of that going to do?

In today's day, being green is more of a concern, above all for the many of us who are living in urban environment with no easy way of discarting of chemicals. I'd be interested in being able to know better about disposal, ways of neutralizing chemicals etc ... It is a grey area, and I admit to having no clue about what is an acceptable threshold when it gets to disposing of chemicals. I think that there is a lot of misconceptions and taboos.

In the book, everything is organized either from the type of toner being explained, or from the tone/tonal output desired. Not from the type of paper. The choice of paper is more reduced nowadays, and also more expensive. I personally want to carry no more than two types of paper. I'd be interested in a section where I'd find the information diced based on the type of paper. For eg if I want to kick the blue out of my MGIV, what is the best way.

If the book was substantially improved, I'd buy it again.

I wish you best of luck in your endeavours,


Best

Delphine

 

[Toffle]

I've had a look at the contents on Amazon and it looks to be a fairly comprehensive resource. It wouldn't need to be updated as much as the lith books, as toning doesn't seem to be dependent on specific products (especially papers) which are no longer available. Then again, I know that some of the toning products have begun to disappear, so perhaps an expanded/updated section on resources might be in order. I am a bleach virgin, having only attempted it on a few cyanotypes, so I am quite interested in learning more about that process. In the absence of a mentor, (I hardly know a single analogue printer, let alone an alternative printer/toner within 100 miles of my home) a good resource book is essential.

I have not seen a copy of the book, so I don't know to what extent this is covered. Regardless, I would definitely like to buy a copy of the original text or an updated one if it becomes available.

Cheers,