Advice sought. The Photographers Toning Book reprinting options.

tim rudman · Jan 14, 2010

delphine said:
Tim, yes there are some additions that I'd like to see included. The book is complete as it is, and it is a book that I refer to very often. However, very often, there are points which are covered but that I feel could be detailed/expanded further. I have bleaching (various types of bleaches) and bleach/redev technics in mind. If I remember well (I am not at home), the printing course had more information about bleaching than the toning book has.

I would be interested in a basic chemic-o-pedia (I am making up my word here), meaning basic information about common chemicals used in recipes to understand better their role, use, function/purpose so that in turn, I am better able to understand recipes themselves. So many times I wonder why do we add this or that, and what is more of that going to do?

In today's day, being green is more of a concern, above all for the many of us who are living in urban environment with no easy way of discarting of chemicals. I'd be interested in being able to know better about disposal, ways of neutralizing chemicals etc ... It is a grey area, and I admit to having no clue about what is an acceptable threshold when it gets to disposing of chemicals. I think that there is a lot of misconceptions and taboos.

In the book, everything is organized either from the type of toner being explained, or from the tone/tonal output desired. Not from the type of paper. The choice of paper is more reduced nowadays, and also more expensive. I personally want to carry no more than two types of paper. I'd be interested in a section where I'd find the information diced based on the type of paper. For eg if I want to kick the blue out of my MGIV, what is the best way.

If the book was substantially improved, I'd buy it again.

I wish you best of luck in your endeavours,

Best
Delphine

Thank you Delphine.
Bleaches are indeed covered more in the M.P. Printing Course book. With a series of books on printing I didn't want one to cover too much of what was in another book (unless greatly expanded of different, as with Lith and Toning books), as it might look like recycled information in another cover. However, bleach and redevelopment was one of the fringe subjects I intended to include but it was one of the casualties in the end when the book was thought by the publisher to be getting too big. It is a bit peripheral to toning really but hasn't been covered much in other publications AFAIK (apart from my Lith book).

Your point about disposal is a good one, as is your 'chemic-o-pedia'. I had in fact hoped to include these too.

Including data on individual papers is a problem as they change so often (sometimes by the time the book hits the shelves!). The Lith books are good examples of this, which is why I publish a pdf update via my website. The toners are discussed in terms or a) neutral papers, b) warmtone papers, and c) lith prints however, with step wedges for a & b for comparison.

thanks again
Tim

tim rudman · Jan 14, 2010

Toffle said:
I've had a look at the contents on Amazon and it looks to be a fairly comprehensive resource. It wouldn't need to be updated as much as the lith books, as toning doesn't seem to be dependent on specific products (especially papers) which are no longer available. Then again, I know that some of the toning products have begun to disappear, so perhaps an expanded/updated section on resources might be in order. I am a bleach virgin, having only attempted it on a few cyanotypes, so I am quite interested in learning more about that process. In the absence of a mentor, (I hardly know a single analogue printer, let alone an alternative printer/toner within 100 miles of my home) a good resource book is essential.

I have not seen a copy of the book, so I don't know to what extent this is covered. Regardless, I would definitely like to buy a copy of the original text or an updated one if it becomes available.

Cheers,

Thanks Tom
Tim

delphine · Jan 14, 2010

tim rudman said:
Bleaches are indeed covered more in the M.P. Printing Course book. ...as it might look like recycled information in another cover.

Since the printing course is out of production, I don't think anyone would see any overlap between the books as recycled information. Moreover, there are obvious overlap subjects which are expected, eg. caring for the prints, or washing.
To go back to bleaching/redev, (sorry if I am insisting), I don't remember the printing course (I am still not at home) developing to a great extent on the bleaches, the three types were eluded. It may be a fringe subject, but I think that it pertains more to the toning phase than the printing one, because it takes place outside of the darkroom, and in my mind, if I bleach/redev, I am toning because I am affecting the tonal range of the print. Also, this would have an incidence if I tone afterwards.

tim rudman said:
Including data on individual papers is a problem as they change so often (sometimes by the time the book hits the shelves!).

Fair point. Sell soft update services?

Kind regards

Delphine

Edward_S · Jan 14, 2010

I would certainly be interested in owning a copy of a new Photographers Toning Book. I've been doing B&W darkroom work for two or three years (this is my first APUG post!) but anything other than basic toning is unknown territory.

I do remember being very impressed with Tim's exhibition exploring 'the colourful world of monochrome' at the Gallery on the Green, Warlingham, a year or two (or three?) ago.

Thanks to everyone on APUG for such a free exchange of information and advice - it's a great place to be!

Edward

DAP · Jan 16, 2010

You can count me as one of those that "just missed" buying the toning book. I own your master printing course book and refer to it often. You can put me on the waiting list for a reprint of the toning book

I know nothing about the printing industry so here is a question for you...how much would a hardcover add to the printing costs? I really prefer a hardcover for a reference book (I would rather pay $50+ for a hardcover vs. $29 for a soft cover). Offering a nice hardcover edition might coax some original edition owners w/ worn & tattered copies to pony up for the new one.

tim rudman · Jan 17, 2010

DAP said:
You can count me as one of those that "just missed" buying the toning book. I own your master printing course book and refer to it often. You can put me on the waiting list for a reprint of the toning book

Thank you. If it does come back into print I will certainly post the fact on APUG.

DAP said:
I know nothing about the printing industry so here is a question for you...how much would a hardcover add to the printing costs? I really prefer a hardcover for a reference book (I would rather pay $50+ for a hardcover vs. $29 for a soft cover). Offering a nice hardcover edition might coax some original edition owners w/ worn & tattered copies to pony up for the new one.

I looked into this when the World of Lith Printing was being prepared. From the publisher's point of view a more expensive HB version can also mean fewer sales. Softback with flaps is a poplular format with the public apparently so that is what we went for. I wanted a HB though so I opted to personally fund an additional small run slip-cased HB numbered limited edition which would not be reprinted when sold out. I felt that this gave a good choice and indeed some people bought both.
Tim

CBG · Jan 17, 2010

First, tremendous book! Many thanks to Tim. I had no idea what many options toning has to offer till I read his book. Kind of a black hole in the information world till I found Tim's book. I have recommended it many times.

I tend to use books like this as working reference sources and so would be one of the, perhaps few, buyers for a hard bound book with top quality binding meant for daily usage. I know that bumps up cost and price but... Then again, having bought a soft bound copy back when it was available at reasonable cost, I feel very lucky now to have it at all.

On electronic copies, I would want a pdf last of all since I intensely dislike reading pdfs on a computer. Great format for sending to printer, lousy format for reading on a computer. I believe reading on a computer screen is a bit more work that reading on a printed page, but I'd be willing to read on screen if necessary, just not via pdfs. The sluggish rendering, poor transitions or navigation from page to page, and poor searchability of pdfs make them very user hostile. I far prefer .htm web format for on-screen reading.

All this discussion on Tim's books got me to hop over to Amazon just now to purchase The Photographers Master Printing Course. I don't want to wait till it's $999.99.

Martin Aislabie · Jan 21, 2010

Tim, had a few days to ponder what I would add to the Toning Book

My suggestion is would be to add a section on typical workflow for the already covered Toning processes

This is particularly true when you are using a combination of Toners.

It seems to be something that comes up here on APUG on a regular if not frequent basis.

I raised a thread some time ago when I was experiencing problems with Selenium and Gold Toning

Having read and re-read your book several times I thought I had the workflow sorted out

However, I was surprised how much mis-information I was offered to try and overcome my issue.

You kindly posted on my thread confirming I had got my workflow correct

However, it stuck me that this was an area where there was an opportunity to shed more light

Just another of my $0.02 opinions

Martin

Neil Smith · Jan 21, 2010

I have been trying to get a copy of this book at a price I can afford for some time, I have the The Photographer’s Master Printing Course, The Master Photographer’s Lith Printing Course and the World of Lith Printing. But this book is becoming the holly grail, I can't justify the £150+ a copy being asked on Amazon so I hope some publisher will have the common sense to see that there is a demand for this book and reprint. All of Tim Rudmans books are excellent and I would gladly buy a copy of the Photographers Toning Book if it were reprinted. I have the money waiting to hand over and would happily pay twice the price for a hardback version.

Neil

tim rudman · Jan 21, 2010

That's a good suggestion Martin.

Position at present is that -
Firstly I have been surprised and delighted by the considerable interest shown in this thread. I had been very disappointed when the book was not scheduled for a reprint after its rapid sellout (about 18 months for the UK version) but came to accept that it was a niche and diminishing interest and that commercial decisions had to be made. So this current interest has been very heartening.
Secondly, an APUG member with contacts in the printing world has offered to get reprint quotes for me to see if a self funded reprint is viable commercially.
Thirdly, a little while back another APUG member sent me links to a self publication book series that he had found useful so I ordered 2 books and I will read them them on my holiday coming up very shortly.
Finally, following the interest here I have approached a publisher who has promised to consider and get back to me on this.

I had had it in the back of my mind for a while to maybe explore reprint options 'one day' but hadn't anticipated so much interest, so you have definitely moved this up the agenda!
I don't know yet if any of these will lead to a reprint or if so, if it would permit additional text. However, I do plan to follow these leads and see where they take me. Thank you everyone for your interest and your suggestions. If you have more of the latter please pass them on (just in case)

Tim

Nige · Jan 21, 2010

I could say, don't reprint and my unread copy (I've only flicked thru looking at the piccies... I've never got past using Viradon to tone images) will be worth a fortune one day... (do they actually sell copies at the quoted prices? and no I'm not selling!) however, in the interests of photographic knowledge, hopefully a reprint comes about!

I have a friend attending your Melb toning course coming up... might have to get him to take my books (have the matser printing one too) along and get signed! He's got a copy too.

Cheers, Nige

djkloss · Jan 22, 2010

I take my book with me to work everyday and whenever I have to sit in a doctor's or dentist's office. I couldn't do that with a pdf file. It's well used & well read, complete with coffee stains and yellow highlighter marks. I love this book and couldn't do toning without it and the inspiration. I hope you will consider a 'quality' book that won't fall apart at the seam (binding) over a cheap one. I think it is worth every penny, and would love to have a new one. To me, quality is very important in a book that will last a lifetime.

as an aside, I took my niece in the darkroom and let her get her hands wet (she's still in highschool) and she loved it. She and her friends in Connecticut love using film and she's only 17. Those are the people we have to convince that analog photography is still important.

Thank you Tim for doing this for us!

~Dorothy

Rolleiflexible · Jan 28, 2010

At the risk of offering a digital solution to this
analog problem: Apple's new iPad, and its new
iBooks bookstore, would seem to offer an avenue
to revive many out-of-print books that have no
other commercial outlet. My understanding is
that Apple will be offering books from major
publishing houses. But I am betting that it will
also provide a sales point for anyone who has
content to sell, as it does already with its App
Store. This new device holds a lot of promise
for those looking for a way to sell and distribute
content, like books ... like books no longer
available in paper copies. It's worth a try.

f/stopblues · Jan 31, 2010

I've been looking for a copy of the toning book and came across this thread in my search. I'd just like to add my voice to the crowd hoping for a reprint of this book. An electronic copy would be great if other avenues don't work out, but I'd much prefer a printed version. Tim's lith book is keeping a nice warm spot on my bookshelf for a companion

RalphLambrecht · Jan 31, 2010

Rolleiflexible said:
At the risk of offering a digital solution to this
analog problem: Apple's new iPad, and its new
iBooks bookstore, would seem to offer an avenue
to revive many out-of-print books that have no
other commercial outlet. My understanding is
that Apple will be offering books from major
publishing houses. But I am betting that it will
also provide a sales point for anyone who has
content to sell, as it does already with its App
Store. This new device holds a lot of promise
for those looking for a way to sell and distribute
content, like books ... like books no longer
available in paper copies. It's worth a try.

Too bad, the only iPad format for eBooks is ePub and not pdf. ePub offers little control over formatting and the electronic version of the book may look nothing like the printed or pdf version of the same publication. This is keeping me from offering an eBook version of 'Way Beyond Monochrome'.

Tom Kershaw · Jan 31, 2010

Ralph,

I'm not convinced about eBooks as a replacement for printed works. A simple PDF however could be useful for referencing, but for reading through I much prefer a printed volume.

Tom

removed account4 · Jan 31, 2010

tim

have you looked into http://www.lightningsource.com/ ?
they offer printing services ( they are the back door to a big publishing company )
and they will get you into the large bookstores. they sell over 1,000,000 titles in their digital library
and from what i remember they don't get buy backs from book sellers
because they are pretty much printed on demand.
their prices are reasonable and they have been in business for a long time ...

i look forward to hearing your next step!
john

RalphLambrecht · Feb 1, 2010

Tom Kershaw said:
Ralph,

I'm not convinced about eBooks as a replacement for printed works. A simple PDF however could be useful for referencing, but for reading through I much prefer a printed volume.

Tom

Same here. A pdf is useful for searches, but nothing reads easier than printed books.

Toffle · Feb 1, 2010

RalphLambrecht said:
Same here. A pdf is useful for searches, but nothing reads easier than printed books.

Call me old fashioned, but I like my trees dead... I print charts, data and graphs for reference, for my darkroom and for the field. I have binders full of articles printed from the web. All of these can be stored and viewed electronically, but I simply prefer paper with my penciled notes in the margin. (Oddly enough, I don't do this to books, I am meticulous about not writing anything in my books)

I guess this is my round about way of saying no ebooks for me.

Cheers,

tim rudman · Feb 6, 2010

Toffle said:
Call me old fashioned, but I like my trees dead... I print charts, data and graphs for reference, for my darkroom and for the field. I have binders full of articles printed from the web. All of these can be stored and viewed electronically, but I simply prefer paper with my penciled notes in the margin. (Oddly enough, I don't do this to books, I am meticulous about not writing anything in my books)

I guess this is my round about way of saying no ebooks for me.

Cheers,

I too much prefer paper books and this is what I am pursuing at present. Nothing definite but I will post here if this leads somewhere.
I really appreciate all the interest and suggestions made here. Thank you everybody.
Tim

ruilourosa · Feb 6, 2010

An example to follow...

thanks Tim for everything

sly · Feb 6, 2010

Another vote for paper here. I'm eagerly awaiting a chance to buy this book.

Alexander Ghaffari · Feb 9, 2010

I would happily purchase a printed copy of this book, as well as carry it around to show to my photog friends, who may also purchase additional copies.

Stephanie Brim · Feb 10, 2010

Tim:

This and The Photographer's Master Printing Course, both reprinted, would be invaluable. I couldn't even find a copy of Master Printing Course in an Iowa library; we had to get it from Nebraska and I only got to keep it for a few days. Now that I'm sure I'll be printing soon, I really want both.

Anything you can do would be appreciated and you can count me among the ones who would buy.

CBG · Feb 10, 2010

I see this thread has been viewed 3900 times by now - a very solid level of interest publishers might want to know about.

I would be thrilled if Tim was to offer an updated and enlarged treatment. Esoterica might not be for everyone, but it would grab my attention. Tim offers information hard to find anywhere else, and makes it wonderfully readable. Tim's The Photographer's Master Printing Course which I just purchased is just as useful.

Ruggedly bound construction would be wonderful, since it is one of those books one refers back to again and again. I'd hate to wear out such a valuable book.

Advice sought. The Photographers Toning Book reprinting options.

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