Advice purchase of 4x5 field camera: Intrepid mk4 vs Shen-Hao (HZX45-IIA) vs Chamonix

[Photopathe]

Hi!
Anyone can help me pick the right model of 4x5 field camera for my needs?
Here are my requirements:
Under 2000$. Under 2.5/3Kg. Graflok back (I want to be able to use roll film backs, etc.). Best possible movement capability in this category of camera (field, light weight, affordable) including with wide angle (75mm is what I am looking at, maybe wider at some point).
I was decided to buy an Intrepid mk 4 but now I am also looking at Shen-Hao (HZX45-IIA) and Chamonix. I like the weight and the price of the Intrepid but of course it's not the only consideration... I have seen the other two options sometimes go under 2000$.
I try to compare the specs to evaluate which has most movement but I find it difficult to compare the data. It's not straithforward the way manufacturers present it (not standardized) and I am inexperienced.
Many thanks!

 

[Bob S]

Are you aware that regular, non Graflok, back field cameras are designed so that virtually any roll film back, slip in or Graflok, will simply slip under the gg as it opens much wider then other cameras?

 

[4season]

I'm not super-experienced with LF but have carried a field camera into the field (where else?) on a number of occasions. I used front rise a lot, sometimes front + rear tilt + tilted bed to achieve even more shift. Never really used front/rear swings or rear shift at all.

The widest lens I ever used was a 90mm Schneider Angulon (non-Super) which had the added advantage of being small enough that I could leave it mounted on the camera even when it was folded. Really wide lenses may require more specialized hardware such as a bag bellows, or even a different camera altogether, but I have no experience with such. The reason is that with really short focal lengths, your bellows is more compressed at infinity focus, and compressed bellows don't allow for a lot of movements, at least not shifts.

Main thing I notice with the Intrepid videos is that they've cut costs by eliminating niceties like spring-loaded pieces which automatically lock front and rear standards upright at 90 degrees, and in order to collapse the front standard, you've got to unscrew a nut. But so long as said nut is the captive sort (wouldn't want to drop one in tall grass or deep snow would you?) these seem like reasonable tradeoffs.

 

[Peter Schrager]

Used wista

 

[David A. Goldfarb]

Of those three, I'd go with the Chamonix--beautiful, lightweight folding wooden field camera with a lot of versatility.

 

[Mick Fagan]

I have the Shen Hao you are considering, it is an excellent camera, I have used the model prior to the current Chamonix camera once alongside my Shen Hao.

There are slight differences and on paper, the Chamonix is the better camera. The Shen Hao has rear shift, whereas the Chamonix has its shift on the front. One has more rise on this standard and so on...........

The reality is they will both do virtually anything you could imagine in the field, and, within reason, the are both pretty good at architectural photography.

I regularly use a 65mm on my Shen Hao, it will work with the standard bellows, they are fairly scrunched up, but they do the job easily. The reason they work is because you have almost no possible movements with a 65mm lens as it just covers the 4x5" format. I have a bag bellows for my Shen Hao and use them whenever I use my 90mm or anything smaller, the bag bellows certainly makes life easier. Using bag bellows with the 90mm means I can utilise the extreme coverage of that lens without forcing the standard bellows into positions where it could lead to damage or a premature life expectancy.

The Chamonix would certainly be on my very short shopping list if I needed to replace my Shen Hao HZX45-IIA.

The focusing is easier to use on the Chamonix, sort of. Either camera can focus perfectly, but the later design of the Chamonix where the focusing screw is at the rear under the dark cloth (if you use one) is certainly a big difference.

With standard bellows the Chamonix is able to manage a longer focal length lens. Not by much but it certainly is longer and is able to handle a slightly shorter focal length.

What the Shen Hao does have, is detents which centre and home things. That said, I am comparing the previous model, not so sure about the current offering.

I would suggest you look for a second hand unit of either one and get into large format that way. You really need to use a LF camera for a while to understand the system, height to width of the format and how the different focal lengths work. Changing cameras later, either to acquire a new or second hand camera of your choice, means you can keep all of your lenses and just start using the new camera. It is reasonably possible that you could sell your first second hand camera for close to what you paid.

Mick.

 

[Ian Grant]

Like Mick above I would go for a Shen Hao or a Chamonix if I had the money to replace and retire my Wista 45DX which has had heavy use now, In practice though I now also use a Graflex Super Graphic and although it has less movements compared to the Wista I've never found this an issue for my landscape work, there enough, rise/fall, front tilts as well as a little bit of front swing. The Super Graphic is robust and very quick to use particularly hand held which was one major reason I bought it (I often shoot where tripods are not permitted) I also bought it on a whim as it was so cheap £1200 / $150, after around 10 years use I still find it a lovely camera to use.

Ian

 

[Photopathe]

Thanks for the inputs and sorry for the delayed response.
After reading your answers and reading a little more on the net I am now leaning towards the Chamonix 45F-2.
I already bought a Fujinon W 180mm f5.6 with very large image circle. I think my next lens would be the Nikkor SW 75mm f4.5. I'm also interested in a Fujinon 250mm 6.7 as a possible third lens (also got a huge image circle).
One thing that bugs me is that it looks like the Intrepid mk4 that I previouly taught I would buy seems to have more room on some movements than the Chamonix 45F-2. Here are some specs. If anyone can comment on this... (second one is the Intrepid mk4 of course)

 

[Huub]

Of those camera's you mentioned, i have used the Shen Hao now for about 5 years. It is a beautiful camera, that does it's job very well. Mine has the universal bellows, which allows me to use even a 58mm SA on a flat lensboard. What i also like about the camera is it's massive movements. When you combine back and front movements and use indirect rise, it outperforms the two other cameras. Of course you can never have enough on a camera, but for my style of photography (portraits, landscapes and architecture) more often the image circle of the lens limits me and not the capabilites of the camera. What i also enjoy is that the tilt on the back is partly over the central axis, which makes it easier to maintain focus while tilting the back slightly.

One last remark: consider a lens somewhere in between the 180mm and 75mm you intend to use. A 110 mm super symmar XL or a f8 105mm Fujinon SW will fit in nicely between those two focal lenghts. Both have plenty of image cricle.

 

[Photopathe]

Thanks! That reminds me of another question I forgot to ask. The Shen Hao can infinity focus a wide angle lens by advancing the rear standard instead of moving the front stardard backward. That prevents the risk of having the front rail in the picture frame with, for exemple, the 75mm I intend to use. From what I can see the Chamonix 45F-2 doesn't have that possibility. Would a 75mm put the front rail in the frame with the Chamonix 45F-2?

 

[Photopathe]

And here are the specs of the Shen Hao since i gave it for the other two...

Specifications:

Bellow Extension: 50 - 360mm

Front Set Movements:

Rise 37mm

Fall 32mm

Tilt forward 90°

Tilt backward 45°

Swing ±17°

Rear Set Movements:

Rise 45mm

Swing ±20°

Tilt forward 90°

Tilt backward 20°

Shift ±40mm

Weight / Dimensions:

2.4kg

170 x 170 x 100mm

 

[Alan Edward Klein]

I recently bought the 45H-1 over the F2 because I don;t really hike. MAinly short walks from my car. The 45h-1 can be stored with the lens on including a shutter release cable with no assembly. That saves times when you want to set up and shoot and move from site to site without disassembling the F-2. I just pop the 45h-1 onto my tripod ready to go. Assuming you're in the same position as me. Also, note that both 45h-1 and 45f-2 cameras have asymmetrical focusing. The 45H-1 takes wider angle lenses. Check their camera specs. http://www.chamonixviewcamera.com/cameras

Also, backs on the 45h-1 can be changed. From their web site: "The rear standard on the 45H-1 can be removed and exchanged for other format backs. We have 4x10, 5x7 (horizontal only), and 6x17 backs for the 45H-1 camera. With the 45H-1 the photographer can use other formats; only the back standard is changed. All these formats have the build quality that Chamonix is known for."
http://www.chamonixviewcamera.com/cameras/45h1

Check with Hugo who is Chamonix representative for more info. hugo zhang <hugoz_2000@yahoo.com>

 

[Photopathe]

Thanks Alan! I had a look at the 45H-1 already and found it very interesting indeed. However I have decided not to go that way. I need it to be light for travel and backpacking. Some features I will of course miss because of that but everything is a compromise...
Same goes for the Shen Hao, it is significantly heavier than the Chamonix F2, which is already 500g heavier than the Intrepid. I can cope with the step in weight to go from the Intrepid to the F2, but unless I confirm I will lack movement if I pick the Chamonix instead of the Shen Hao I'd rather stick to the Chamonix for that reason. Opinions seem to differ on that point (as often). Movement difference/advantage between the Shen Hao and the Chamonix (F2)? Before someone asks: for a variety of shooting styles but mostly landscape and architecture.

 

[Photopathe]

Huub, as another lens option to stick in between the 75 and 180 focal lengths I was thinking about the Nikkor SW 120mm f8. Makes sense? I has an even bigger image circle and is not too pricey.

 

[esearing]

I have had both brands but do not remember the model of the Shen Hao I had. The only problems I had with Shen hao were the tiny knobs and it was difficult to fold/unfold. The Chamonix N2 is a breeze to use and can be found used for under $1000. The ground glass pops out if you want to use a roll film holder such as the horseman 6x9 or other variants. Even less expensive are the Nagaoka or Ikeda Anba cameras, they have less features, but they do fold down to a tiny size for backpacking. An Ebony 4x5 is a really well made beautiful field camera with good specs but will cost more and be harder to find.

And FYI... Chamonix is making a special run of the 5"x12" (13x30cm) camera with optional 5x7 back for Steve Sherman.

 

[David A. Goldfarb]

Massive amounts of tilt are rarely required—usually just a few degrees. The only exception I can think of in practical application is where you’re photographing a very tall structure and can’t step back far enough because of some obstruction, and you don’t have enough front rise and rear fall on your camera, so you point the base/rail of the camera up and tilt the front and rear standards forward to keep them parallel to the structure you’re photographing, and this presumes you have a lens with huge coverage to manage that shot. In other words, using tilt on both standards to accomplish an indirect front rise in addition to the front rise built into the camera. In theory you might use the reverse movements to photograph from the top of a tall building or the rim of a canyon, but those situations haven’t come up for me yet.

 

[locutus]

A more important consideration too is if you want rear focus.

For closeups (which often fall in the macro range in lf) this is a extremely important feature as it greatly simplifies focus.

Something to keep in mind for shen hao

For the Chamonix on the other hand, it's asymmetrical base tilts on the rear are very useful for near far focus with wides.

And do not get hung up on degrees of tilt or swing, you'll use far less than you'd imagine.

 

[Huub]

A 120mm would make sense too ofcourse. For me it would depend on the balance in focal lenghts: it might be mathematically half way between the 75mm and the 180mm, but does that feel the same way too when taking pictures? I once changed a 210mm for a 240mm because the 210mm felt to close to a 150mm, compared to the distance between a 150mm and a 90mm. I would lean to a bit shorter then 120mm, but that is a personal decission based on my style of shooting. The only thing i can can guarantee is that the 110mm Super Symmar has plenty of image circle for 4x5.

 

[lantau]

A more important consideration too is if you want rear focus.

For closeups (which often fall in the macro range in lf) this is a extremely important feature as it greatly simplifies focus.

Something to keep in mind for shen hao

For the Chamonix on the other hand, it's asymmetrical base tilts on the rear are very useful for near far focus with wides.

And do not get hung up on degrees of tilt or swing, you'll use far less than you'd imagine.

I learned that yesterday. Actually I read about it and forgot again. But this time I will remember. I was trying to focus on an orchid flower with the front standard at about 1:1 (bellows == double focal length) and it just wouldn't get into focus. Until I realised my mistake and used the rear standard.

So it was a good thing indeed to buy a monorail as my first LF camera to learn the ropes. I might add a cheap Intrepid as a lighter carry-around camera later. From their Instagram Stories it looks like they are working on a 5x7. Just a scaled up 4x5 Mk IV from what it looked like.

 

[John Koehrer]

Personally I'd try the camera with fewer lenses. You can always feel it out when you use the camera a little bit.
When you begin comparing focal lengths you also need to think about angle of view. Huub says he changed from 210
to 240 for the slight difference. At that slight difference some might use the two foot zoom.

Different strokes I guess.

 

[Photopathe]

Thanks everyone!
I’ll definitely try the Chamonix 45F-2.
And if at some point I realize that I feel limited by the camera’s movements I may get a Toho FC-45X...

 

[JWMster]

Just bought and received my Chamonix 45-F2 last weekend. LOVE this camera! and it's Linhof (read: SMALL) lens boards. Everything now fits in a small backpack: Camera, 3 lenses (or 2 lenses and film holders) and exposure meter + loupe. VERY HANDY. Still learning this baby. Got black bellows and teak wood. Bought a dark from wandererphotogear.com which works MUCH better than the others I've tried. Easy to work. I came to the camera less for the specs and more for the design, convenience and portability. Home run. Go for it. I wrote back and forth with Hugo many times before pulling the trigger. Ask him directly about your concerns. He's very helpful. I'm sure there are other cameras out there.... I didn't want overly beautfiul (cherry wood or some such and fancy (brass) parts.... just workable). Chamonix is beautiful, but I see that as a complement to its function and kept it plain. Still learning it though... but now LF is fun.

 

[tim48v]

Just did a review/comparison on two related cameras: the Toyo CF45 and the Nagaoka. Different cameras but same issues and tradeoffs.
https://shop.stearmanpress.com/blogs/news/camera-compare-nagaoka-4x5-and-the-toyo-45cf

 

[superpos]

Hi, buy used, I am very happy with my Toyo Field 45A/45AII. Use the rest of the money for nice lenses.

 

[5x7shooter]

Thanks everyone!
I’ll definitely try the Chamonix 45F-2.
And if at some point I realize that I feel limited by the camera’s movements I may get a Toho FC-45X...

The Toho is a great camera, if you can find one. I recently got one on eBay from an US seller in very nice condition for $625 and prefer it to my mint condition wood Nagaoka and also to my Meridian B press camera, which is sort of intermediate between a basic Speed Graphic press camera and a Linhof Technika. The Toho works well without hassles with lenses from 75mm to 300mm focal length.

The Toho is slickly designed, super light and easy to pack, and surprisingly rigid for its size. If you do find and buy one, look up Kerry Thallman's review and his suggested improvements. As he suggested, I replaced the stock tripod mounting block with a $9 Neewer Arca-Swiss 50mm or so plate from Amazon, a very easy adaptation that requires no drilling nor cutting metal. (The Really Right Stuff plate that Thallman recommended no longer fits.) Literally, just unscrew the round OEM tripod base, get two M5/.8 nuts and lock washers from the hardware store and reassemble substituting the Arca-Swiss base plate. That makes the Toho even more rigid and a bit smaller and lighter.

The Toho uses hard to find round lens boards, but you can use Technica boards mounted at a 45 degree angle in the light-trap and retain light-tightness. Solely for easier carrying and mounting, I got some generic Technika-style boards and cut them round to fit in the same manner as the round OEM Toho boards. That was more convenient but not strictly necessary.

As a starter LF camera, though, it's hard to go wrong with one of the Speed Graphic or Meridian B press camera variants. They're very sturdy, inexpensive, and close compactly. The rangefinder might even work in some instances. I use a Meridian B on occasion with a 150mm / f5.6 Fujinon W lens, also a nice rig.