Advice on seasoning XTOL-R

Radost · Feb 2, 2023

Reading a lot on this forum most people get good result with replenished XTOL using 1:1 times.
Here is my question:
Is there a time adjustment formula from starting with stock solution and stock time to fully seasoned and 1:1 times?
How many 135-120 films delta or classic grain does it take and what should the time adjustment be?

osella · Feb 2, 2023

Using and replenishing XTOL

For the last 7 years XTOL has been my go to developer for pretty much everything and I've always used it as a one-shot, 1:1. I have been considering trying to go the route of using it as stock and replenishing, but I have a few questions. 1. I have heard people talk fondly of 'seasoned' XTOL...

www.photrio.com

There is some good information in the linked thread. There are times for replenished xtol in the data sheet, post #25 in the above thread.

It should be somewhere around 5 rolls of film before you need to start replenishing. This and your developing time may need to be adjusted depending on replenishment rate and solution volume used for replenishment.

Donald Qualls · Feb 2, 2023

It would be reasonable, lacking other information, to interpolate the times from "fresh" to "replenished" as you go through the seasoning (six rolls per liter). In other words, for a given film, you'll know the stock time and the 1+1 time (which you presume to be the replenished stock time as well); you'd then add 1/6 of the difference for each seasoning roll (per liter) already processed at the start of a development.

With the document in the above link, however, you aren't reduced to estimating or guessing.

MattKing · Feb 2, 2023

Donald Qualls said:
It would be reasonable, lacking other information, to interpolate the times from "fresh" to "replenished" as you go through the seasoning (six rolls per liter). In other words, for a given film, you'll know the stock time and the 1+1 time (which you presume to be the replenished stock time as well); you'd then add 1/6 of the difference for each seasoning roll (per liter) already processed at the start of a development.

This was what I did the last time I needed to season new X-Tol. It got me quite close to my final steady state results.
Just don't forget when it is time to empty developer from the developing tank

Donald Qualls · Feb 2, 2023

MattKing said:
Just don't forget when it is time to empty developer from the developing tank

Yeah, that's necessary any time. I use the Dev-It app on my Android phone -- although it crashed partway through fixing last time I developed a roll...

aparat · Feb 2, 2023

I'm sure it's been said many times before. Replenished XTOL is not a miracle developer, but it can be a stable and capable performer. I'm quite pleased with the results. Just be patient through the seasoning stage. Don't rush it. It may take a dozen rolls before it's stabilized, relative to how strictly you judge your results.

Andrew O'Neill · Feb 2, 2023

To season my 1 litre of XTOL stock, I ran 6, 8x10 sheets of film through it. I think that would be 6 rolls of 35 and 120 film? Matt will correct me... After that, I started to replenish accordingly. I started using my 1+1 times, and then adjusted the times accordingly. That was three years ago!

Donald Qualls · Feb 2, 2023

Correct, one roll of 135-36 or one roll of 120 is considered equivalent to an 8x10 sheet or four 4x5 sheets.

MattKing · Feb 2, 2023

I wasn't clear - I was trying to remind the OP not to dump the developer down the drain at the end of the developing stage!
If the OP is going from using a developer one-shot to a replenishment regime, new habits are necessary!

Steven Lee · Feb 2, 2023

Radost said:
Is there a time adjustment formula from starting with stock solution and stock time to fully seasoned and 1:1 times?

Yes. It is in the datasheet. Look at this table:

Each roll developed in the same 1L increases the development time by 3%. Once you approach 1+1 times, you can consider your batch to be seasoned. BTW I find it interesting that the definition of "seasoned" for Xtol is missing. Kodak does not sell starters anymore, and people season by developing films each arriving at their own unique stable activity level. It's not even remotely close in precision to seasoning and replenishing C-41. If you search archives, you'll find a thread where folks posted their Xtol-R times. They were all over the map, like 2x different for some films!

MattKing · Feb 2, 2023

Steven Lee said:
Yes. It is in the datasheet. Look at this table:

View attachment 328498
Each roll developed in the same 1L increases the development time by 3%. Once you approach 1+1 times, you can consider your batch to be seasoned. BTW I find it interesting that the definition of "seasoned" for Xtol is missing. Kodak does not sell starters anymore, and people season by developing films each arriving at their own unique stable activity level. It's not even remotely close in precision to seasoning and replenishing C-41. If you search archives, you'll find a thread where folks posted their Xtol-R times. They were all over the map, like 2x different for some films!

If you happen to have C-41 or E-6 starter, it can be used to season X-Tol. But unless that applies to you, for people switching to replenishing X-Tol, it makes more sense to do it yourself by following the above - except I prefer instead to increase time by ~3% per roll until I get to 1 + 1 times.
And like any other combination, when people report their times, they are usually reporting how they "like" their negatives - no calibrated exposures, densitometer readings or characteristic curves involved!

Sirius Glass · Feb 2, 2023

I develop up to 5 or 6 rolls in stock XTOL increasing time as per the instructions and then add 5*70ml or 6*70ml respectively to turn it into replenished XTOL.

Radost · Feb 2, 2023

MattKing said:
I wasn't clear - I was trying to remind the OP not to dump the developer down the drain at the end of the developing stage!
If the OP is going from using a developer one-shot to a replenishment regime, new habits are necessary!

Great advice.

Radost · Feb 2, 2023

Sirius Glass said:
I develop up to 5 or 6 rolls in stock XTOL increasing time as per the instructions and then add 5*70ml or 6*70ml respectively to turn it into replenished XTOL.

Hold on. You don’t add stock for 5 or 6 roll? And then add the equivalence replenisher?
What instruction for increasing time? I can not find them.

Sirius Glass · Feb 2, 2023

Radost said:
Hold on. You don’t add stock for 5 or 6 roll? And then add the equivalence replenisher?
What instruction for increasing time? I can not find them.

Donald Qualls · Feb 2, 2023

MattKing said:
If the OP is going from using a developer one-shot to a replenishment regime, new habits are necessary!

Ah, yes. I didn't have any such adjustment when I started replenishing; I poured used developer back into the graduate (even if it was going down the drain) from the time I started developing film again in the early 2000s. The other thing you do have to do, however, is make sure you don't cross up the graduates holding developer, stop bath, and fixer...

MattKing said:
If you happen to have C-41 or E-6 starter, it can be used to season X-Tol.

I'm interested in this -- how much starter and how much water? I have C-41 starter on hand (for starting my replenished Flexicolor), and will soon be making up a fresh tank solution of EcoPro (=Xtol, from reports, even for replenishment rates).

MattKing · Feb 2, 2023

Donald Qualls said:
'm interested in this -- how much starter and how much water?

See the X-Tol datasheet - J-109 or its earlier versions.
https://125px.com/docs/techpubs/kodak/J-109_Feb_2018.pdf

pentaxuser · Feb 2, 2023

Steven Lee said:
Yes. It is in the datasheet. Look at this table:

View attachment 328498
Each roll developed in the same 1L increases the development time by 3%. Once you approach 1+1 times, you can consider your batch to be seasoned. BTW I find it interesting that the definition of "seasoned" for Xtol is missing. Kodak does not sell starters anymore, and people season by developing films each arriving at their own unique stable activity level. It's not even remotely close in precision to seasoning and replenishing C-41. If you search archives, you'll find a thread where folks posted their Xtol-R times. They were all over the map, like 2x different for some films!

I am now a bit confused. Isn't the above table meant for a non replenishment system whereby you use a whole litre of the same unreplenished Xtol by pouring the 250ml of developer for one film back into the one litre and continue to do this for each film with the increase in times stated until you get to 15 films when you dump the whole litre and start on the next fresh litre?

Thanks

pentaxuser

Steven Lee · Feb 2, 2023

@pentaxuser yes, that's what that table is for. But it just happens to be exactly the same activity as seasoning Xtol by developing films in it.

MattKing · Feb 2, 2023

pentaxuser said:
I am now a bit confused. Isn't the above table meant for a non replenishment system whereby you use a whole litre of the same unreplenished Xtol by pouring the 250ml of developer for one film back into the one litre and continue to do this for each film with the increase in times stated until you get to 15 films when you dump the whole litre and start on the next fresh litre?

Thanks

pentaxuser

Steven Lee said:
@pentaxuser yes, that's what that table is for. But it just happens to be exactly the same activity as seasoning Xtol by developing films in it.

What Steven said. The idea is that you stop doing that - before 15 rolls have gone through it - and switch over then to replenishment. That switch happens when the developer is only partially/slightly used up/imbued with development byproducts, and from then on you use and replenish it.
This maintains the working solution in an intermediate, steady state that provides high quality, predictable results at a very low cost - often one package of X-Tol will be enough replenisher to develop ~70 rolls of film.

aparat · Feb 2, 2023

I am not sure how useful these will be to the OP, and I had shared these plots already elsewhere, but these curves show that replenished XTOL does, indeed, stabilize and provide a solid platform for conventional film development. In my case, it took about twenty rolls, but I got decent stability after about a dozen. Your experience may be different, but the advice in this thread has helped me figure out how to do this. I am glad I listened

kodak_tmax_P3200_intro by Nick Mazur, on Flickr

ilford_delta_3200_intro by Nick Mazur, on Flickr

Radost · Feb 3, 2023

Unless I can use my C41 starter and go right to seasoned developer i really dont want to run 20 rolls guestemating to get to that state.
My other reason is consistency and particle build up.
I wIll keep my 1+1 to keep everything clean.
No need to filter and worry about foaming and consistency.
THANK YOU FOR ALL THE INFO EVERYBODY.

MattKing · Feb 3, 2023

FWIW,
1) 20 rolls will certainly give you consistency, but if you follow the suggestions in this thread, your intermediate rolls will be very, very similar with respect to how "developed" they are. What does vary in that time is mostly grain;
2) one of the advantages of X-Tol in a replenishment regime is that there is relatively little need to filter. I do it every once in a while when I pour the used working strength developer back into the storage bottle ;
3) I have never had trouble with foaming;
4) I have enjoyed excellent consistency over the years I have been using X-Tol replenished.
Prior to using X-Tol replenished, I used HC-110 replenished, which required a no longer available special purpose HC-110 replenisher. That required more care than X-Tol, but also gave good results.
In my experience, variation over time with replenished X-Tol is very gradual and small, tends to correct itself, and is probably related as much to variation in the types of negatives as anything. For example, if I have a run of dense negatives recording brightly lit subjects, after a few rolls it is a good idea to increase replenishment by 10-20 ml per roll for a bit.

Steven Lee · Feb 3, 2023

Matt, you sound a bit cultish. Listing the rare need for filtering and consistency as advantages of replenishing is.... new. Replenished Xtol loses a bit of film speed, brings zero improvement to grain, is less consistent vs one-shot, and comes with operational overhead of monitoring activity, keeping 5L of replenisher somewhere, and periodic filtering. The only advantage is cost.

Oh horror! Photrio is run by the replenishment mafia!

Moose22 · Feb 3, 2023

What's the difference between keeping 5L of xtol to replenish and keeping 5L of xtol to use one shot at a time?

I mean, do what you want. I've done regular, one shot, and am doing R now. Xtol is great. 1:1 with P3200 is a favorite for shots in ridiculously dark music venues. Lots of ways to use it well, and 1 shot will technically be the most consistent.

But it sounds like you're looking for problems that aren't really problems.

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