Advantages of MF over 35mm

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StoneNYC

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As roger and bill were talking about 4x5's and TS lenses, I created this thread because I have TS questions, hope it's ok to Plug this here, if not, someone tell me and I'll delete it.

(there was a url link here which no longer exists)


~Stone

The Important Ones - Canon: AE-1, 1V | Kodak: No 1 Pocket Autographic, No 1A Pocket Autographic | Mamiya: RZ67 Pro II, 7 II

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Roger Cole

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Looked at "Blue Hole" while writing this (always a pleasure to see your print), so I know there are things you can do (and have done) only with 4x5... No worries Roger, I'll still shoot and appreciate 4x5.

I never* had problem with lack of movements in 35mm. And I can be contemplative in a crowd.

Even with roll film I keep development under sensitometric control. I just sacrifice a few frames at the beginning of a roll for a test strip... And I get a curve of what Contrast Index I actually develop that roll to. I find sensitometry just as valuable to know where you are (so you can knowingly develop more or less next time)... as it is to tailor each shot to the specific lighting.

*Of course there were occasional thoughts of buying a shift lens but I never shelled out for one.

Oh, that's right - you were in the LF print exchange!

The print he's referring to is an 11x14 he received from me in this year's Large Format Print Exchange. (It's also on my Flickr page as "Blue Hole2" - I believe I called it "Sun and Blue Hole" or some such for the exchange.) The reason it's 11x14 is that's the largest size the exchange allowed. I don't think it would be nearly as smooth and grainless in 35mm even if shot on slower film, and this was from 4x5 TMY-2. OTOH, I doubt you'd be able to tell that much difference if I'd shot it on 6x7, except that I might have had to stop way down to get the foreground rocks sharp if I couldn't have used the back tilt.

I like using the big camera. I hate dust and loading film holders. Sometimes it's worth it. :wink:
 

georg16nik

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Thanks for that. I was going by memory on several tests from different sources and also wanted to be conservative in my claim. Of course, perfect conditions don't exist in the field, anyway.

Agfaortho 25 is not an "ordinary" film, but still, very impressive.

Zeiss are doing it in the field not in lab conditions..
According to the same Zeiss Camera Lens News No. 17 September 2002 published by Carl Zeiss, Oberkochen - Camera Lens Division

At Zeiss, we use photographic techniques similar to normal pictorial photography including commonly available cameras with Zeiss camera lenses and achieve the same resolving power figures. So the resolving power, as stated by the film manufacturers under lab conditions, is not just of some theoretical value, but it can be achieved and utilized in real world photography.
As we keep testing new film types as they appear on the market in order to find those that are best capable of recording the rich details that can be imaged with Zeiss lenses, we find a trend among the leading film manufacturers towards higher resolving powers combined with increasing film speed. Today, it is possible to resolve 150 lp/mm with 160 ISO color negative films. In black & white, the same resolution can now be had at a speed level of 400 ISO!

....
So it comes round full circle... Maybe I should have given 35mm 100TMAX a chance in 1987
...

According to Zeiss Camera Lens News No. 19 March 2003., in tests conducted by Kornelius Mueller of Carl Zeiss, T-max 100 was capable of 180 lp/mm. Error margin +/- 10 line pairs per millimeter.
 

JBrunner

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That we are comparing 20 square inches of pretty sharp film to one or a couple square inches of really sharp film is something to consider. Inch for inch my 4x5 may not produce the same sharpness as a really good 35 set up, but then again, it doesn't really have to. With my 4x5 or 8x10 if I'm doing things right I don't need to think about sharpness, and I get to concentrate on other things that are more important to me than eeking out everything I can get from an emulsion.
 
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That we are comparing 20 square inches of pretty sharp film to one or a couple square inches of really sharp film is something to consider. Inch for inch my 4x5 may not produce the same sharpness as a really good 35 set up, but then again, it doesn't really have to. With my 4x5 or 8x10 if I'm doing things right I don't need to think about sharpness, and I get to concentrate on other things that are more important to me than eeking out everything I can get from an emulsion.

Jason,

I fully understand your view. For me, it isn't difficult to get satisfying print quality from any format, and while I am discerning about print quality, none of the extra work is ever allowed to stand in the way of making the picture.

Additionally, I feel that I end up with better prints from 35mm often, because the small negative makes me work harder, and in my opinion it shows in the prints.

I do like putting a 4x5 negative in the enlarger, however, but I do not enjoy spotting the print, something I rarely have to do with 35mm, even in 16x20 prints.
 
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Medium format offers a 400% larger view over 35mm (based on 6x7 negs/trannies). It is a huge view. 5x4 is even bigger. 8x10 much bigger still. Lay out a 35mm neg frame next to a MF or LF sheet.
Viewing is much easier too. A 3 to 4x loupé is the only thing required to judge sharpness and focus while a loupé up to 10 or 12x is needed for 35mm. Of course, there is a lot more room to consider composition and visual aesthetics in larger formats over the small and undeniably restrictive frame. But never think that 35mm doesn't have its strengths — like loading a film is a simple affair compared to the fumblefest of MF, LF!

For many years I printed Ilfochrome Classic prints from 35mm Velvia. Nothing, including larger formats on lesser media, has ever come close to these. Exposure is much easier in medium format, but much, much more precise manually (spot~) metered. Most people agree that MF and LF are formats for technical expression and mastery of the subject (especially large format). Where 35mm excels is in the speed and spontaneity of everyday life. It's ready the moment you pick it up: LF is not. Even MF cameras, with their often inherent lack of automation, require a structured approach to use, especially since there are typically 10 or 12 frames that could easily be laid to waste by bad decisions.

At the end of the day, however, it is the power of the photographer's subject, composition, technical mastery of, and knowledge of his equipment, and execution of the final print that determines what format is best for his or her needs. Not what others postulate that what works for them will work for others. It doesn't work that way.
 

Klainmeister

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Thomas, that's partially why I like MF so much. Not too much spotting vs 4x5, and higher resolution and sharpness compared the 35mm. I swear by the M7II prints. They could be 4x5 according to most people who see them.
 

StoneNYC

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I had an experience today that gave me a huge insight. Up until recently I've been shooting in good weather. I just spent the day out with Hurricane Sandy. I actually started with my Mamiya 7, had a camera raincover, realized, DUH I can't see anything through the cover as the viewfinder was covered, went back, grabbed the RZ67, shot off 2 rolls, but it was extremely heavy as I had to use the viewfinder with the rain cover instead of the waist level finder which is my preferred view with that camera, went back to the car, realized I needed my 35mm, rain resistant, accurate internal meter, fast frame, light(ish), admittedly I used both my 1V and my digital 5D (I couldn't change lenses in the hurricane and wanted wide angle AND Zoom).

Haven't processed anything yet, I'm too tired honestly, but I uploaded 3 of the digitalis if anyone is curious (please don't flame, it's within context).

http://www.flickr.com/photos/23208896@N04/8136939354/

I'll link some film shots on another day.

Point is since no one has made a water resistant RF or SLR for MF (that I know of) there is certainly still a benefit to shooting 35mm, at least during hurricanes haha...


~Stone

The Important Ones - Mamiya: 7 II, RZ67 Pro II / Canon: 1V, AE-1 / Kodak: No 1 Pocket Autographic, No 1A Pocket Autographic

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Bill Burk

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Stone,

Stay safe and dry... I guess your photo serves as an example of what kills DSLR's that film cameras typically can survive...

Among my regrets is not offering to buy a waterproof housing for a Rolleiflex that I saw at a garage sale. Beautiful hunk of what I can only describe as a deep-sea diver's bell helmet.
 

StoneNYC

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Stone,

Stay safe and dry... I guess your photo serves as an example of what kills DSLR's that film cameras typically can survive...

Among my regrets is not offering to buy a waterproof housing for a Rolleiflex that I saw at a garage sale. Beautiful hunk of what I can only describe as a deep-sea diver's bell helmet.

Ironically my 5D is sitting in rice right now as when I got home it said "error" so, the water seals might not have been as good as my 1V film camera.

That's a serious regret... If I had an underwater housing for either of my Mamiyas (or canons) I would still be outside with 3200 B&W and a tripod...


~Stone

The Important Ones - Mamiya: 7 II, RZ67 Pro II / Canon: 1V, AE-1 / Kodak: No 1 Pocket Autographic, No 1A Pocket Autographic

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JBrunner

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Jason,

I fully understand your view. For me, it isn't difficult to get satisfying print quality from any format, and while I am discerning about print quality, none of the extra work is ever allowed to stand in the way of making the picture.

Additionally, I feel that I end up with better prints from 35mm often, because the small negative makes me work harder, and in my opinion it shows in the prints.

I do like putting a 4x5 negative in the enlarger, however, but I do not enjoy spotting the print, something I rarely have to do with 35mm, even in 16x20 prints.

Agreed, spotting blows.
 
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That we are comparing 20 square inches of pretty sharp film to one or a couple square inches of really sharp film is something to consider. Inch for inch my 4x5 may not produce the same sharpness as a really good 35 set up, but then again, it doesn't really have to. With my 4x5 or 8x10 if I'm doing things right I don't need to think about sharpness, and I get to concentrate on other things that are more important to me than eeking out everything I can get from an emulsion.

Once upon a time, when I was shimming a new GG/Fresnel into place in my Super Graphic, I did a little comparison between my cameras. Wollensak Optar 135mm to Nikon 50mm, 4x5 to 35mm, slightly wide to normal. I had a clear view across an empty lot of a building a bit over 500ft away. Halfway inbetween is a brick building. Comparing the two, I could not see the individual bricks in the building halfway over in the 35mm negative. With the 4x5, from 500ft away, I could count all the bricks, and even the spokes in a bicycle wheel in the window. Those bicycle spokes only show up when the print size is at least 16x20.

So it's not just lp/mm that's important, it's the whole scene of it. Yes, I'm sure that the Nikon lens might beat the Optar on a test chart, but I don't go about photographing test charts for pleasure, and I really don't know if it does or doesn't. What I do know is that when the scene is on 20sq/in instead of a bit over 1-1/4sq/in, the detail is going to be there, nearly regardless of the lens.

So of course LF lenses loaf along, they just have lots and lots of room to play with! Honestly, I am comfortable with a 2mm crop from an 8x10, using my Wollensak 6-1/4 lens. That's my avatar picture, in fact, clouds reflected in a window across the street. If I posted a Minox-size crop and didn't say anything, you might think it was from a Minox instead of an 8x10.

And of course if you want to run a lot of shots on the Graphic, you'd better have a few Grafmatic holders at the ready! Or for the same situation use a Canon EOS-1V.
 

michaelbsc

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Which is a better vehicle? A two seater sports car? A family station wagon? Or a step van delivery truck (ok lorry for some folks)?

Depends on the objective of the driver. All objectives that aren't immoral are legitimate in my mind.
 

Roger Cole

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I don't get the thing about spotting, unless you are talking about dealing with black spots from dust on sheet film. Dealing with those other than digitally is enough to make a grown man weep no matter which of a few difficult techniques you use.

But with clean film, I have fewer regular white dust specks from dust on negatives when printing from 4x5 than I do from smaller formats or, more accurately perhaps, the smaller magnifications make them unnoticeable. I just don't have a problem with dust in printing.

Dust on sheet film at exposure, well I've gone from it being rare to ruining more shots than not, depending on method, environment, and luck.
 

mark

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A medium camera will communicate to the opposite sex a level of confidence in your abilities that could never be gotten with a 35mm, no matter how long and wide the lens is. So if you are looking to pick up chicks or land a guy the MF camera will do better than a 35mm.

LF is the REAL chick magnet.
 

warden

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All, thanks for the excellent and informative thread. When I first got my Hasselblad I wondered why the negatives seemed to lack sharpness when compared to modern Zeiss 35mm negatives. Both formats made very nice prints, but still. Hanging out here and a little study has taught me a lot. There's nothing 'wrong' with either format, they're just different.
 
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I don't get the thing about spotting, unless you are talking about dealing with black spots from dust on sheet film. Dealing with those other than digitally is enough to make a grown man weep no matter which of a few difficult techniques you use.

But with clean film, I have fewer regular white dust specks from dust on negatives when printing from 4x5 than I do from smaller formats or, more accurately perhaps, the smaller magnifications make them unnoticeable. I just don't have a problem with dust in printing.

Dust on sheet film at exposure, well I've gone from it being rare to ruining more shots than not, depending on method, environment, and luck.


Spotting is best done digitally. That's the unfortunate truth.

The Master Printer of my Ilfochromes remarked when he retired that he was "fully over it!" (spotting prints). It was tedious, labour intensive and time consuming, with deadlines, deadlines, deadlines from many photographers all around the nation. Three staff were at times employed to concentrate on the task of "zero spotting"; with some prints costing $6,000 raw, it was the unspoken rule that no print would leave the lab with any blemish, notwithstanding the raw Ilfochrome Classic materiel was often blemished to start with. The biggest prints, almost 2m across, took close to a full working week to spot. Dust during exposure is unavoidable, and I have seen hairs, dust, dirt, sand, pollen, kitty litter, wax... not necessarily in the 'chroming room, but in hobbyist darkrooms too.
 

Roger Cole

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How the #$%^ do you spot Ilfochrome? (Non digitally of course.) I used to print it some, type R paper more, and the only way of dealing with a black spot on it from dust in my experience was to re-print.

Similar question for those who are apparently successfully "spotting" black spots on prints from sheet film negatives that had dust on exposure. The ways I am familiar with, none of which I've had success with:

1. Spot the negative so that the spot prints white, then spot in the usual way. The problem with this is that one must be EXTREMELY careful or you end up with an absolutely gigantic and almost impossible to successfully spot white spot on the print. Also, I'm not sure of the material to use for this. Something used to be recommended, something red I think, but I can't recall the name. At any rate, I could never find the stuff.

2. Bleach back the black spot with very strong ferricyanide bleach. You'll never bleach it just enough to match so bleach it too far then spot it back down. Same problem as spotting the negative, only worse - hard to control and prevent from running or making a way too big bleached area. I have a set of spot pens that are supposed to work on this principle, one bleach pen and one spot pen. Just like the regular spot pens, I never got them to work worth a damn either.

3. For very small dark areas, take a sharp fine x-acto knife and carefully abrade some of the emulsion off. I actually have been able to make this work acceptably well, but only for very, very tiny areas.
 

Karl T

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One thing I like when I use my TLR is all the interesting people you get to meet on the street who ask you questions.
In two outings I think I was stopped by 5 people, including a man dressed as Ronald Macdonald!


Karl
 

Bill Burk

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Similar question for those who are apparently successfully "spotting" black spots on prints from sheet film negatives that had dust on exposure. The ways I am familiar with, none of which I've had success with:

1. Spot the negative so that the spot prints white, then spot in the usual way. The problem with this is that one must be EXTREMELY careful or you end up with an absolutely gigantic and almost impossible to successfully spot white spot on the print. Also, I'm not sure of the material to use for this. Something used to be recommended, something red I think, but I can't recall the name. At any rate, I could never find the stuff.

New Coccine. PM me and I'll mail you a pinch of the stuff. Then pick up a copy of Lootens and all the instructions how to use it are there. Another trick is opaque. Yes absolutely gigantic gobs of it. Well on 4x5 it's only a pinpoint. You do have to spot it back to gray on the print. But here, you have a chance to make it gray (instead of full on black). And the trick often works 100%. Most of the time it works 80% and that's good enough to keep the spot from detracting.

And the third trick is literally a pinpoint. Rough up the base behind the speck, and it will disappear (visually) on the print. On close inspection you will still have a gray dot with a light halo. But done right, it's well camoflaged.

I don't often use 2. and 3. though I have the Farmer's Reducer and Homer knife. I find the etching knife always leaves a dull spot even when done properly.
 

Bill Burk

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One thing I like when I use my TLR is all the interesting people you get to meet on the street who ask you questions.
In two outings I think I was stopped by 5 people, including a man dressed as Ronald Macdonald!


Karl

Goofy's assistant really got a kick out of the Bessa II at Disneyland... You know these guys see every camera ever made, so they're not easily impressed.
 

Roger Cole

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New Coccine. PM me and I'll mail you a pinch of the stuff. Then pick up a copy of Lootens and all the instructions how to use it are there. Another trick is opaque. Yes absolutely gigantic gobs of it. Well on 4x5 it's only a pinpoint. You do have to spot it back to gray on the print. But here, you have a chance to make it gray (instead of full on black). And the trick often works 100%. Most of the time it works 80% and that's good enough to keep the spot from detracting.

And the third trick is literally a pinpoint. Rough up the base behind the speck, and it will disappear (visually) on the print. On close inspection you will still have a gray dot with a light halo. But done right, it's well camoflaged.

I don't often use 2. and 3. though I have the Farmer's Reducer and Homer knife. I find the etching knife always leaves a dull spot even when done properly.

I think Photo Opaque or something similar sounding was what I never succeeded in finding even in the 90s. If I couldn't find it then, it's probably rarer than fairy dust now.

A quick google of "New Coccine" shows it's a red dye also suitable for food use (though blamed by some for hyperactivity and apparently a problem for those sensitive to salicylates.) Other than getting a pinch from you I've no idea where I'd get the stuff. Is it removable? I think that was the advantage of Photo Opaque, wasn't it, that if you made a mistake it could be removed?

What's Lootens? Sounds like a book but I need more than an author's last name to find a book.

I can certainly drop you a PM though.
 

Bill Burk

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J. Ghislain Lootens F.P.S.A., F.R.P.S

Lootens on Photographic Enlarging and Print Quality.

My local camera store has a copy on the shelf, I almost picked it up just so I could give it away.

Yes the red dye can be removed by soaking negative in plain water for 12 hours if you mess up.
 

JBrunner

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Spotting is best done digitally. That's the unfortunate truth


Well, as soon as you figure out how I spot an 8x10 contact print digitally, you let me know.
 
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